Does God Really Hate Esau?

Post Author: Bill Pratt 

Many Christians are shocked when they read Romans 9:13: “Just as it is written: ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'”  Since when does the God of love hate people?  This verse, coupled with the rest of Romans 9, has led many to believe that God does not love all people, at least with regard to their eternal salvation.  He seems to arbitrarily choose some people for salvation and some people for damnation.  But must we interpret this verse in that way?

I think the answer is “no.”  A more careful reading of this passage indicates that the subject is not individual salvation, but Israel’s national role in redemptive history.

Paul is actually quoting from Mal. 1:2-3, and a reading of those verses in the context of Malachi’s book clearly indicates that Malachi is using the word “Jacob” to refer to the nation of Israel and the word “Esau” to refer to the nation of Edom.

This makes perfect sense because Romans 9, 10, and 11 are all about national Israel and her role in redemptive history.  Romans 9 refers to Israel’s past, Romans 10 refers to her present, and Romans 11 refers to her future.

It is a serious exegetical mistake to interpret Romans 9 to be referring to individuals’ salvation.  According to Norman Geisler, “the election of the nation was temporal, not eternal; that is, Israel was chosen as a national channel through which the eternal blessing of salvation through Christ would come to all people (cf. Gen. 12:1–3; Rom. 9:4–5). Not every individual in Israel was elected to be saved (9:6).”

God works through nations to accomplish his will, just as he works through individuals.  Just because Israel was the chosen nation to bring forth the Messiah did not mean that every Israelite would be individually saved.  Individual salvation has never been and will never be based on a person’s nationality.  Paul is talking about the nation of Israel in Romans 9, not individual salvation.

Finally, it is also important to explain that the word used for “hate” in Malachi 1 is a Hebrew idiom which actually means to “love less.”  Norman Geisler explains: “This is evident from Genesis 29:30: The phrase ‘loved Rachel more than Leah’ is used as the equivalent of ‘Leah was hated’ (cf. also Matt. 10:37).”

God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others.

  • Bill:

    I am curious, since you believe the context of Romans 9 calls for “Jacob” and “Esau” to be interpreted as nations rather than individuals, what is Paul’s point in bringing up Pharaoh? Is it not a reference to an individual? Is Paul’s pint of Romans 9 not summarized with verses 15-16: “‘I will have mercy on who I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion’, so then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy.”

    If Pharaoh is a reference to an individual why would Jacob and Esau be taken any differently?

  • Bill Pratt

    Hi Tim,

    You said,
    “If Pharaoh is a reference to an individual why would Jacob and Esau be taken any differently?”

    All of Romans 9 is based on national Israel (6 times the nation is directly mentioned in Rom 9). Paul is trying to explain to his readers in Rome why Israel seems to have been rejected by God. His readers (many who are Jewish Christians) are, no doubt, concerned about Israel’s place in the new covenant. The reference to Jacob and Esau is most reasonably about the nations of Israel and Edom, because of the very passage that Paul is quoting from Malachi.

    Paul also uses the example of Pharaoh to make the point that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. But again, this is in the context of national Israel. Paul is not talking about the salvation of Pharaoh at all. He is just using Pharaoh as another example.

    I believe it is a serious stretch to try and make Rom 9 be about individual salvation. It just does not fit the context.

    God bless,

  • Romans 9:12 is also a direct quote from Genesis 25:23. Did God choose/elect Jacob over Esau at birth in Genesis or was it speaking of the nations there as well? If it was speaking of individuals in Genesis, then you still have the same issue of God’s election of individuals that you cannot get around. The same goes for Pharaoh. Did God really raise him up for a specific purpose (as if God pre-determined it)?

  • Bill Pratt

    Hi Tim,
    Here is the passage from Gen. 25:23:

    “ The Lord said to her,
    ‘Two nations are in your womb,
    and two peoples from within you will be separated;
    one people will be stronger than the other,
    and the older will serve the younger.”

    Again, it is speaking of nations.

    Let me quickly say that I am not denying that God elects individuals to salvation. I am just saying that this is not what Paul is talking about in Rom. 9.

  • I am not sure how you can read Romans 9 and not see that Paul is using examples of God’s past election of individuals to show that being a descendant of Abraham does not guarantee salvation. God chooses individuals based upon His own mercy and will, not based upon ethnicity or merit.

    Here is a quote from Douglas Moo concerning this passage:

    “9:6b–13 The Israel within Israel. The thesis of the paragraph is stated in v 6b: not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. There is, Paul suggests, in keeping with the OT ‘remnant’ theology, a spiritual Israel within a larger ethnic Israel. Paul may elsewhere use ‘Israel’ to denote the entire people of God, both Jew and Gentile (Gal. 6:16). Here, however, as the sequel makes clear, he is thinking only of Jews. Paul proves his point about the Israel within Israel in two roughly parallel arguments drawn from OT history (7–10, 11–13). In the first, Paul shows that physical descent from Abraham was not enough to guarantee a place within the people of God. Ishmael and Isaac were both Abraham’s children; yet it was through Isaac alone that God ‘reckoned’ Abraham’s spiritual descendants (Gn. 21:12). Spiritual descent from Abraham, then, is based not on birth but on God’s promise. Isaac, not Ishmael, was the recipient of that promise (10, quoting Gn. 18:10 and 14).

    As if the point were not clear enough, Paul now makes it even more emphatically by choosing an illustration from the next generation of Israel (10–13). For one could object to Paul’s first illustration that a significant difference in natural descent distinguished Isaac and Ishamel: the former was born to Sarah, ‘the free woman’, and the latter to Hagar, ‘the slave woman’ (cf. Gal. 4:21–31). But no such difference existed between Jacob and Esau. As twins, they were not only born to the same mother, Rebekah, but they were even conceived at the same moment (the Greek koitēn probably refers to sexual intercourse). Yet even before their birth Rebekah was told that ‘The older shall serve the younger’ (Gn. 25:23). This priority of Jacob is confirmed by a second OT text quoted by Paul, Mal. 1:2–3, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated’. From these OT testimonies to Jacob’s priority Paul draws the conclusion, in a parenthetical note (11b–12a), that the blessing enjoyed by Jacob was based on nothing that he had done but on God’s free, sovereign call.

    What is this blessing? Since the OT contexts from which Paul draws his illustration are speaking mainly about the historical roles of Jacob and Esau, or the nations they represent (Israel and Edom), the plan of God, (cf. Mal. 1:2–3), Paul may mean nothing more than that Jacob enjoyed the privilege of being a positive instrument in that plan. But the language that Paul uses throughout this paragraph—reckoned (7; cf. 4:2–21); election (11; cf. 11:5, 7, 28; Acts 9:15; 1 Thes. 1:4; 2 Pet. 1:10); purpose (11; cf. 8:28; Eph. 1:11); works (12; cf. 4:4–8); calls (12; cf. 8:29)—generally refers to the issue of eternal salvation. And it is this issue, the fact that so many Jews have not become saved through the gospel, that has sparked this whole discussion. We conclude, therefore, that Paul is using these OT texts to illustrate the principle of God’s sovereignty in salvation: being a child of God (cf. vs 7–9) depends ultimately on God’s calling. God’s ‘love’ of Jacob and ‘hate’ of Esau are ways of describing in sharply contrasting terms God’s election to salvation and his exclusion from salvation, respectively.”

  • Hi Bill. I came across another quote in Thomas Schreiner’s commentary on Romans in the Baker Exegetical Commentary series. It is found on page 497.

    “Another controversy exists over whether the salvation promised here relates to individuals or groups. Many opt for the latter and exclude the former, because Paul’s focus in these chapters is surely on the salvation promised to corporate Israel. I have argued at some length elsewhere that such a dichotomy is logically and exegetically flawed, for groups are always composed of individuals, and one cannot have the former without including the latter. At this juncture I should note that the selection of a remnant out of Israel implies the selection of some individuals out of a larger group. Moreover, the unty of Rom. 9-11 indicates that individual election cannot be eliminated. In chapter 10 believing in Jesus is an individual decision, even though large groups of Gentiles are doing so. The individual and corporate dimensions cannot be sundered from one another in chapter 10, and the same principle applies to chapter 9. Those who insist that corporate election alone is intended in chapters 9 and 11 are inconsistent when they revert ot individual decisions of faith in chapter 10. The three chapters must be interpreted together, yielding the conclusion that both corporate and individual election are involved.”

  • Bill Pratt

    Hi Tim,
    You said,
    “I am not sure how you can read Romans 9 and not see that Paul is using examples of God’s past election of individuals to show that being a descendant of Abraham does not guarantee salvation. God chooses individuals based upon His own mercy and will, not based upon ethnicity or merit.”

    Verse 6 and following, in Rom 9, is making the point that the true spiritual Israel consists of the children of promise, or those who were part of the believing remnant. There is an Israel within Israel.

    Again, the context indicates that Paul is defending God’s strategic dealing with national Israel.  “It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” The reason Paul indicates the true spiritual Israel is because his readers were thinking that God’s purposes and privileges for Israel (vs. 4-5) were thwarted – that God failed with Israel. Paul is saying, “No, there is a spiritual Israel found within ethnic Israel who has always believed and believes today and will believe in the future. God has not failed with Israel.”

    There are two groups within Israel, the believing and the unbelieving. Paul distinguishes between the two in Rom. 9.

    Douglas Moo argues that the words used in Rom. 9 generally indicate a discussion of eternal salvation, but I would argue that those words have multiple meanings, and it depends on the context. Most of what I see in Rom. 9 says that the context is God’s dealings with national Israel. Paul is explaining how God is in sovereign control of national Israel’s destiny, and always has been.

  • Bill Pratt

    I would say that corporate election (God’s historical purposes for Israel) is the main theme of Rom 9-11, but there are sections dealing with individual salvation (in chapter 10, for example). I don’t think there are sections in chapter 9 talking about individual salvation.

  • mae

    So, in christianity, ‘hate’ means ‘lesser love’ or ‘ lesser bless’. As always, christians are good in playing with words. They can make people see ‘red’ as ‘yellow’ etc. They can make people read ‘death’ as ‘alive’ etc.

  • Bill Pratt

    Not sure what you’re getting at, Mae. In this instance, it is not Christians but ancient Hebrews who used the Hebrew word for “hate” in some instances to mean “love less.” It was a figure of speech, an idiom. Are you disappointed that God doesn’t hate Esau?

  • Rick Godfrey

    Hello, I still believe that God has a chosen remnant that He chose from the foundation of the world. In John chapter 10 Jesus talks about his sheep. He says that his Father gave them to him and he would not lose a one of them. The Father then draws them to Jesus and Jesus said that he would in no wise cast out any that came to him. Salvation is all about the Father and His Son and His will being performed. For Ephesians chapter 1 states that God works all things after the counsel of his own will. Any time you have an elect or chosen group of people, you will also have those that will be left out or rejected.

  • Devin Jacob

    didn’t hebrews 12:10 “See that no one is sexually immoral or is Godless like Esau…”

    If what your saying is true then the author of Hebrews is wrong, which simply cannot be if we agree that the bible is the infallible word of God.

  • Bill Pratt

    The verse is Heb. 12:16 and it has nothing to do with God hating Esau or predestining Esau to eternal damnation. The writer of Hebrews is telling his readers to not behave like Esau did, when he sold his birthright for a meal. Believers should treasure the grace God has shown them.

    Again, there is no contradiction.

    God bless,

  • Hi Bill,

    I think you’re picking at straws here.

    The bible depicts a dual character of God–two sided…one filled with hate and the other filled with love.

    This is supported in many verses, such as Isaiah: I make good and I create evil…

    It is a very long story, but I hope I will give you more details later.

  • Bill Pratt

    If you’re saying God hates evil actions and loves good actions, I agree. If you are saying that God hates people, then I could not disagree more. God is love. It is impossible for him to hate a person in the way that humans hate each other. He wishes the good for every single person.

  • Bill,

    Thanks for you insight.

    My teenage son is caught up in this debate and I believe it’s for his own convenience.

    He came home from church stating that he wasn’t going to try to be a good christian anymore because his youth pastor told them that God had predestined him and his friend to go to hell because there was no hope for them to be saved. He said the youth pastor used the same test in Roman’s that you have commented on. So my sons argument is that maybe he is one of those that God has predestined to hell and perhaps on of those hated by God like Esau.

    I’m on this website looking for some kind of correct spiritual response that will give him hope or correct his rebellion to God since he come home from church with this belief.

    He also stated that the youth pastor stated that God hardened The heart of Pharaoh and thus hardens the heart of individuals today so that they cannot be saved. I once again feel in my heart that this is in error but I cannot find in the Bible where it is stated as so.

    Thank you,

    Father of disturbed teenager and christian.

  • Bill Pratt

    My first advice to you would be to get your son out of this youth program. For a youth pastor to tell a teenager that he is predestined for hell is so wrong on so many levels that I don’t where to begin! He is a textbook example of extreme Calvinism gone theologically insane.

    The first thing we need to straighten out is that nobody knows whether another person is going to be saved or not. Paul says in 1 Cor. 4, “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts.” Even the most hardcore Calvinists I know don’t tell people whether they are one of the elect. Salvation is by God’s grace through our faith. God may save whomever he wants, and if your son professes faith in Christ, then he is saved!

    With regard to Pharaoh, he hardened his heart first (see Ex. 8:15 and 32), and God later further hardened his heart to confirm his wishes. But even if God did harden Pharaoh’s heart, this has nothing to do with salvation. The context in Exodus is about the slavery of Israel and the plagues brought on by God through Moses, not getting into heaven. It is poor exegesis to try and apply Pharaoh’s situation to a person’s salvation.

    I do believe that God will turn a person over to their own sinful desires (including rejection of Him) if a person persists in this rejection, but we also know God is “patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).

    I have to stress again that Rom 9 is not about individual salvation. It is about national Israel. Just read the passage in context without a specific theology in mind, and it jumps out at you. Paul already dealt with individual salvation in the earlier chapters of Romans.

    John, I’m not sure what else to say except that I’ll pray for your son. Let me know if there is anything else I can do.

    God bless,

  • To John Wilson..

    I just want to say that I am a Senior Pastor (website link at my name) and if I verified that one of my youth pastors said such a thing, he would be removed from all ministry immediately. Of course, I would allow him to stay and worship as part of the general congregation, but he would be out of any sort of influence and leadership.

    As was stated above, it is something that even a strong Calvinist would never declare – it is ignorant and destructive.

    If I were you, I would speak to the youth pastor first to verify this is what he really stated and it was properly understood by your son (and bring your son with you to witness), and if so, I would share it with the Senior Pastor (again, with all individuals present – you, son, youth pastor). Not sure what will happen next, but feel free to email me at the church link or blog it here. The church email is filtered first for junk so make sure you mention we personally conversed and it should get to me with no problem.

    Blessings to you.

  • Bill Pratt

    Thanks very much for your advice. Very well put.


  • Brad

    Pastor Steve, excellent advice, that’s exactly what I was going to say. John, you do need to confirm what was actually said and what was meant, both with your son and with the youth pastor. With a teenager, it is possible that something wasn’t heard right, or understood correctly. Not saying that is definitely the case, just a possibility.

    However, if after investigating you find that this really is what the youth pastor said, and meant, then I agree his senior pastor needs to be informed, and he needs to be removed from his position. You simply can’t have someone with that much influence over youth (or anyone, for that matter) be so incorrect about something so important. What if your son HADN’T said anything about it to you, yet still believed what the youth pastor told him? Then he may be lost, and you’d have no idea. Too scary to NOT do something about it, in my opinion.

    I pray you have wisdom in your dealings regarding this matter.

  • David Cobb

    I most whole heartedly agree with confronting in love the youth pastor in these circumstances, but dont forget, the youth pastor may in fact be “parroting” the theological positions of the senior pastor. It is so necessary today to “pin down” leadership in a church so that the entire local body of believers know exactly where their fellowship exists on the axis of theology. Most “folks” in the pews do not know exactly where they stand, and in Baptist churches consider how we “appoint” senior pastors. In most cases they come and preach one or two (or their best) sermons, and on that basis we usually say “there is our man”. Deep questions and postions should be “hammered” out before a chuch extends a call to a pastor so that everyone clearly knows the theological direction of the fellowhip. QED.

    Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

  • Ed Tuggy

    Hello Bill:

    I am a missionary kid from Venezuela, have been a missionary Bible translator in Venezuela, and ten years ago, with my wife, founded a ministry called Faithfulness in the Family (

    In recent years I have been assured that God isn’t afraid of our questions, so I began a list of verses that don’t seem to match, that I would like to ask someone about. My desire has been to validate my faith and confidence in the Bible as God’s Word.

    Unfortunately, this quest has been getting more and more unsettling for me. There isn’t space here to list all the “mismatched” passages, but I am currently wrestling deeply with the Romans 9 difficulties.

    Like Mae said, in Christianity “hate” means “love less”, etc. I say it’s time for me to stop playing games with words and theology. The Bible says “God is love” (1 John 4:8). The Bible quotes Jehovah as saying, “…Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated.” Malachi 1:2-3 (ESV) These two theses simply don’t fit together. Which am I to believe, that God is love, or that God loves some people and hates others (individuals or nations, it doesn’t make God look any better).

    I John teaches us that we have to love ALL people (individuals or nations) not just some.

    For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother’s righteous. Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:11-15 (ESV)

    The Bible says we should be impartial, and that showing partiality is ungodly.

    In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. 1 Timothy 5:21 (ESV)

    My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. James 2:1 (ESV)

    And yet we are told, “…though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! Romans 9:11-14 (ESV)

    So, God can play favorites, and tell us not to show partiality, but there’s no injustice with God. God can elect one person to have mercy on, and another to mark out for destruction, before either of them is born or has done anything good or bad, but that’s not prejudging and there’s no injustice with God. I know God is vast and I’m a tiny creature, and I don’t know when the mountain goats give birth, but quite honestly this all sounds fishy to me.

    Romans 9 goes on to say:

    So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” Romans 9:18-19 (ESV)

    You said it, Paul. If it’s God’s will for someone to be devoted to destruction, and He hardens their heart, why indeed does God find fault with them? If God is sovereign like that, then human free will is an illusion, and indeed, who can resist his will? Okay, let’s grant both free will and the sovereignty of God; then God hardens a person’s heart to make sure they don’t accept his “offer”.

    But the Bible says, “The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)

    So which should I believe, that God is not willing that any should perish, or that God has mercy on whom he has mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden? There is a mismatch here.

    Romans 9 goes on to say:

    But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:20-23 (ESV)

    Okay, who am I to answer back to God? But this is an honest question, and I would hope the Good Shepherd would treat my question respectfully, not abusively. I’m not asking, “Why have you made me like this”. I’m asking, “Which of these two theses am I to believe?” Yes, the potter has the right over the clay to use one lump for honorable use and another for dishonorable use. But again, this confirms that God is electing people (individuals or nations, it doesn’t matter) to salvation or damnation. So then, if it’s God’s electing we’re talking about, why do the lumps of clay have to bear the moral responsibility for what God does?

    Another oddity here is that if it’s God’s will for people to repent, believe and be saved, and be zealous for good works, so that people will see their good works and glorify God, how can it also be God’s will for some people to be hardened and not repent or believe, and go on sinning and not glorifying God, and be condemned for not repenting, or believing, and going on sinning and not glorifying God?

    Okay, God’s ways are past finding out, and I’m probably “trying to figure out too much using my own intellect”, etc. But that’s not a fair charge. I have two daughters who have stopped believing in God (and not because I was sharing these questions with them, because I wasn’t). I told God that I didn’t want them to go to hell, so I would rather go there myself if in any way it could help them to avoid going there. It’s not that I’m “trying to figure out God too much”; rather, it’s that I’m no longer content to say, “I don’t understand this stuff, but at least I’m glad that I’M among the elect!” . That egotistical attitude isn’t going to satisfy me anymore.

    I really don’t know where to go with all of this. I don’t know of any other God to turn to. I believe in God, I believe He is holy, but honestly His holiness is losing some of its shine in my eyes.

    If I am misinterpreting Scripture, or not letting the words speak plainly, or reading anything into Scripture, or if there’s anything I’m overlooking, please let me know. Otherwise, I’m hoping God will personally reveal the answers to me and satisfy my desire to genuinely and sincerely admire God and praise Him for His works. If I’m genuinely dismayed at God’s ways, and find Romans chapter 9 objectionable, and my opinion doesn’t count with God when I’m less than pleased with Him, then how come my opinion would count if I were to praise Him? If my objections are not welcome but my praise is welcome, that seems like it’s requiring me to be insincere and phoney.

    Thank you for your consideration of this submission. Please give me any real help you can, but please avoid word games. Please don’t say, “There are no contradictions in the Bible,” as if that solves things. The evidence is actually quite damaging for the claim that the Bible has no contradictions or inconsistencies or discrepancies.

    Bruce (Ed) Tuggy

  • Ed Tuggy

    Oh, I should add that I am currently on Leave of Absence from Faithfulness in the Family, seeking a more personal encounter with God.

  • Ed,
    You are dealing with the issue of man’s free will and God’s sovereignty, which is a topic that has been debated for thousands of years among Jews and Christians. So, the first thing I would say to you is that you aren’t being unreasonable at all when asking these questions. Many people have gone before you asking these same questions. If God can deal with the blunt questioning of Job, I think he is perfectly OK with your questions!!

    I have written several blog posts on this topic under “free will,” so I hope you’ll read some of those posts. I have also written about Romans 9, although briefly. Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation, but everything to do with the role of national Israel in God’s redemptive plans for the world.

    The single best book I would recommend that deals with the issue you’re struggling with is Norman Geisler’s Chosen But Free. I highly recommend you buy a copy and read it, as I think it will help you work out these issues. Another book you may find helpful is Paul Marston and Roger Forster’s God’s Strategy in Human History.

    As you’re reading these books or blog posts and have specific questions, please feel free to ask. I’ll do my best to help out. I, too, have struggled with this issue, but after several years of study I am satisfied with the answers I have. I don’t think we can completely understand this issue, but we can stand on the shoulders of other Christian thinkers.

    God bless,

  • Ed Tuggy

    Thank you for your kindly and gracious response. That means more to me than a smug explanation, which you didn’t offer, I’m glad to say.


  • Ed Tuggy

    Hello again, Bill,

    I’ve been thinking further about my concerns with Romans 9, and I think my concern goes deeper than just the issue of man’s free will and God’s sovereignty. I think my struggle is with becoming cynical and skeptical. Why should I trust the heart of a God who says he is love in one passage, and says he hates someone in another passage about election? And how I can I be sure of the reliability and authority of a Bible that has such conflicting things to say? I have such a large collection of passages that conflict with each other and seemingly cancel each other out, that sometimes it’s difficult for me to take the Bible seriously or keep on relying on it.

    Fortunately, there are some things that seem to stand in the Bible without any passage to the contrary; for example, we are all sinners needing to be saved; Jesus was born of a virgin, died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again and ascended into heaven, where He intercedes for us; if we go to Christ for salvation, He will not cast us out, but will give us eternal life.

    I wish someone could explain the seeming contradictions and reversals in the Bible, but meanwhile I’m doing my best to keep on in the faith.

    Ed Tuggy

  • Hi Ed,
    I myself have studied numerous alleged Bible contradictions and have found satisfactory answers for most of them, and the few that I have not found satisfactory answers for, I have set aside for the time being, content that I may never understand them.

    Why am I content to not resolve every seeming contradiction? Because the Bible has overwhelmingly proven itself as a collection of wisdom and history that can be trusted. For every one difficult passage I encounter, there are 100 that are not. Since the Bible was written over 1500 years by some 40 different authors, it is amazing that it coheres so well.

    One book that I consult when I encounter alleged Bible contradictions is Norman Geisler’s The Big Book of Bible Difficulties: Clear and Concise Answers from Genesis to Revelation. Some of the answers he gives are stronger than others, but he has done a lot of research that is worth reading.

    In that same book, Geisler also offers some general guidelines for reading the Bible which I wrote on in a multi-part series of posts. Start with this one and see if these posts help.

    With regard to God “hating” Esau, we have to remember that “hate” in this context is a Hebrew idiom for loving less (that is what our Hebrew experts and scholars tell us), and that Esau in Romans 9 is referring to a nation, not a person. There is no doubt that God has singled out specific nations and people in history to advance his kingdom, but I don’t see any problem with this. While he selects people to advance his kingdom, he never overrides their free will. He works through their free will. We all play different roles in the cosmic drama that is unfolding. Again, I highly recommend you read the book God’s Strategy in Human Historyto help you sort this out.

    God bless,

  • Ed Tuggy

    Hello, Bill,

    Thank you for your kindly answers.

    Just a thought in response to the claim that “hating” Esau means loving him less. I wish that could help.

    In Jesus’ sermon on the mount, he taught us to love all men, even our enemies, equally, and told us to be perfect as God is perfect, which in the context implies that God loves all men equally.

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48 (ESV)

    This would seem to imply that God loves all men equally, and that to love some men less, or to hate some men, is a characteristic that makes a person less than perfect. So, whether the Bible says that God loves Jacob more and Esau less, or just that God loves Jacob and hates Esau, it would seem that the Bible makes God less than perfect. That is an unacceptable conclusion about God, and so my problem remains.

    Romans 9 needs a lot more explanation, or it needs to be thrown out or disregarded. By the way, perhaps you have noticed that most Christians disregard and avoid this chapter. Are they unwittingly doing the right thing?

    I did look at your posts based on Norman Geisler’s Big Book of Bible Difficulties, and they were helpful, though they need to be applied to each difficulty in a specific way, and may not resolve every difficulty.

    Mistake #5: Neglecting to Interpret Difficult Passages in the Light of Clear Ones, concedes that some passages seem to be teaching things that go against the clear teachings of other passages. How to interpret the difficult passages in the light of the others, or reconcile the inconsistency, is what is bothering me.

    Mistake 7: Forgetting that the Bible Is a Human Book with Human Characteristics, very nearly concedes that much of the book is human and thus not inerrant, but quickly backs away from going to that extreme.

    Mistake #15: Forgetting that Only the Original Text, Not Every Copy of Scripture, Is without Error, concedes that there are errors in the Bibles we hold in our hands. Claiming inerrancy for the original texts, which none of us has seen, is claiming certainty about knowledge that is beyond us mortals. In the case of our Romans 9 difficulty, what did the original document say? Would having the original document resolve my difficulty?

    Bill, I appreciate your work and hope you succeed in clearing up Bible difficulties and defending the faith. I apologize for sounding like I’m coming down on you personally, but my intent is to challenge what seem to be unsatisfactory answers that are going around and are not strictly Bill Pratt’s.

    Thank you,
    Ed Tuggy

  • Hi Ed,
    You said that the Bible teaches that God loves everyone equally. I think this is correct in one sense, but not in another. If we define love as “willing the good of another” then God definitely wills the good of every human being. In that sense, he loves everyone equally.

    If, however, you mean by love that God makes sure that every person has the same material blessings in this life, or that every person will be a prophet, or that every person is saved, then God clearly does not love every person equally.

    So when you say that God loves everyone equally, what do you mean by that?

  • Ed Tuggy

    This is actually in reply to Bill, but I don’t find a Reply button on his last post, so I’m replying to my own.

    Hello Bill,

    I hadn’t thought of defining love in other terms; I would just assume that God’s basic motivation toward everyone should be love, however defined, and shown to everyone in equal measure. Otherwise He would seem to be showing partiality.

    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. James 2:8-9 (ESV)

    By this standard, is God showing partiality when he loves Jacob and hates Esau?


  • Hi Ed,
    Defining what “love” means in a particular context is incredibly important. In James 2, the context is clear from James 2:1-4. James is admonishing Christians to not show favoritism to rich people at their meetings. These verses are not applied to God, obviously, so we should not quote these verses if we are talking about how God loves people.

    Does that make sense?

    God bless,

  • Your definition of love and hate aren’t quite correct. The Hebrew definition for hate (שנא – sane) is: to ‘turn away from another’. It is the opposite of grace (חן – chane) which is: ‘beauty’ implying to look upon or to show favor. The problem comes in when use the English definition of these words to understand the Word of God. That, though, is the caveat of translation and why we must study.

    Likewise love (אהבה – ahavah) is: ‘behold what is provided to make the family strong’. The bet (ב) is a house meaning that love has to do with family. God only has one family, Israel which, as you pointed out, are descendants of spiritual seed. God does not love those who are not in His family. But now we have to deal with perspective. God knows who are his, we don’t. How God sees people does not change the responsibility he has given to us when interacting with others.

    Most theological arguments have to do with three things.
    1) The Word of God is four dimensional. Most arguments are not at odds, simply an understanding of a different aspect of scripture. Our Western mindset doesn’t readily afford us to look ate more than one perspective as correct.
    2) Perspective. We have God’s perspective and man’s perspective. If we don’t differentiate the two, we trip all over ourselves confusing how God sees things with how we should see things. Unlike God, we have limited perception. Just because God hates someone doesn’t mean we should go around hating someone. Just because God knows who are His doesn’t mean we become a slothful servant because we don’t know who belong to God.

    3) Religion. We are still coming out of the Dark Ages. We have inherited a lot of things that are incorrect and flat out lies. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for the Spirit to reveal this to us and being as we are, we don’t like to admit when we are wrong so we cling to and continue to endorse the tradition we’ve inherited. This has to do with dying to self, however. When something we’ve believed our whole life turns out to be a lie and we realize this and embrace the truth, a part of us dies. We don’t like to die, it hurts.

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  • Steve

    you have rightly say Joshua Dale

  • Steve

    Tim, you are right, the word Love and hate that stated is applied to personal individuals,from there goes away to apply to the people and nation’s of God.

    Thank you,

  • Tim A. Setliff

    Interesting, but what about the following?

    Psalms 5:5 – The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. ESV

    Psalms 11:5 – The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. ESV

    Proverbs 6:16-19 – There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, 19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. ESV

    Hosea 9:15 – Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels. ESV

    Summary: God hates evil doers. God hates the wicked and the one who loves violence, he hates a false witness, and one who sows discord. He hates those who are evil in Gilgal and loves them no more.

    This statement “God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others” does not match what Scripture clearly states.

    The real problem is a false view of God. Modern Christianity has a God who is primarily love. The Bible, however, give us a different picture. God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Love is something God does. Holy is who He is. The very essence of God is His Spirit. The Word calls the Spirit HOLY.

  • David

    Gen 37:1; 35:12 — “Now Jacob lived in the land where his father sojourned, in the land of Canaan.” Apparently, to stay “in the land” of his father (of Isaac and Abraham) is to stay with God; is to stay in God’s love and promises (Gen 16:3;15:18-21).

    Gen 36:8-19,6,43; 33:9 — “Esau is Edom,” and “he went to another land (with plenty), away from his brother Jacob.” In some instances, “Esau” is the nation, in other instance, the man.

    Gen 4:16 — “Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord…” (but by Seth, men sought the presence of God / “men began to call upon the name of the Lord” v26).

    Jesus said “Come unto Me” (and you shall find rest); and in that new land (“city”), the Lamb is its lamp (Rev 21:23).

    Re: “Christians are good in playing with words” — actually, what ever God has called it, some men will likely attempt to call it something else. When the Groom decides it is time to lock the door at the appropriate time and no longer let/allow in to the feast those who were invited/received the invitation, then the door is locked. May we ever be accepting and promoting the invitation (and watchful of that Day).

  • Doug

    Bill, thanks so much for this post about Jacob and Esau. I know you left it a long time ago, but it was very timely for me. My church small group is about to have a discussion on this topic and I wanted to arm myself with some background information. My research led me to this blog post and I loved how you presented this information. Thank you.

  • Doug,
    You are most welcome. I hope you enjoy your discussion in your small group.

  • Nina Simone

    Dear John,

    This is an old post I’m replying to but if you no longer need this maybe someone else will…

    Your son’s Youth Pastor has completely misinterpreted these portions of the Bible and the other “pastors” responses to your dilemma are clearly unlearned in this regard. Which is why GOD says “My people perish from lack of knowledge…” Hosea 4:6

    The fact that you do not know what I am about to explain to you means the church you are in has a major lack of knowledge problem. This should be common knowledge among all of the pastors.

    First, in regards to GOD hating Esau, The Bible is a Multifaceted, Multifunctional Mosaic. The picture is the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST to creation and it is made up of many scriptures that each function in conjunction with one another as well as independently and do not Contradict one another if one studies each Jot and tittle correctly within context as well as place and time. As it is written; “it is the Glory of GOD to conceal a thing and the honor of kings is to search out a matter.” Proverbs 25:2

    One of the functions is to reveal a love story between a HOLY, JUST, Patient, Merciful, Loving GOD and rebellious, stubborn, ignorant, inexperienced, reckless, selfish, tantrum throwing children. You have a teenager, you can relate. You were a teenager, you can relate.

    Jacob and Esau are in one respect speaking of the nations of Israel and Edom yes, and yet there is more to it that relates to us also as individuals if you look closer.

    Jacob was chosen because of his rebellious nature even though they had done no good or bad “yet”. GOD was going to humble Jacob even if GOD had to break him (his hip) in order to save his soul. What good will a hip do you in hell? ( “And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out…” Matthew 18:9) The same way GOD through our LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST will drag us through the Pearly Gates kicking and screaming like a camel through the eye of a needle if HE has to.
    ( Note: The eye of a needle JESUS spoke of in Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25 & Luke 18:25 was an actual small stone opening that was in the walls that completely surrounded Jerusalem for the stragglers to enter once the gates to the city were closed. The only way for the camels to get through the opening was the camels would have to be stripped of everything they were carrying, be forced to their knees and pushed through the opening as they crawled. The extremely stubborn camels would have to be whipped to get them to crawl through the opening. (Yes, if we are stubborn we will have to be whipped to. Please see Hebrews 12, for further understanding about how GOD will discipline HIS children if HE must to save our souls.)

    Jacob meant usurper, and Jacob definitely was one. He was a crafty, sneaky fellow who used pagan practices to gain the flocks and he would not accept GOD as his LORD unless he got something out of the deal first. And he sure got it. He was reduced to begging for GOD to bless him and be his GOD. Jacob once he was humbled was renamed Israel which means “Governed by GOD”. We all could learn a lesson from that. i.e. you can take the easy way or the hard way.
    We may forget GOD but GOD does not forget us. JESUS will come after HIS lost sheep and drag them back to the safety of the flock kicking and screaming if HE has to, because HE is faithful though we are not.

    Esau hated his birthright so much that he sold it for a bowl of soup. He wouldn’t have died if he didn’t get that bowl of soup. He wanted the Blessings from GOD but not the responsibility that came with it. Sound familiar?

    Second, GOD did not “directly” harden Pharaoh’s heart, and HE didn’t have to. Pharaoh’s vanity and pride did that all on it’s own. What hardened Pharaoh’s heart was his own belief that he was a god. GOD’s very existence is what hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
    In the Egyptian mystery religion (as well as all pagan mystery religions throughout history as well as today & which all originated in Babel) they believed they could summon deities by using their name to call upon them and demand from them. This is why GOD did not give Moses HIS name. GOD said “I AM that I AM” i.e. HIS very existence is all that should concern you & you have no power over the Great I AM.

    Pharaoh refused to accept the fact that It is us who will answer to our CREATOR not the other way around.

    ” Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.” Job 38:3-4

    Each of the Ten Plagues directly attacked and debunked the alleged powers of the pagan gods and goddesses which Pharaoh believed he controlled and was “lord” over. Each plague was a direct attack on this false doctrine and Pharaoh’s heart hardened more and more as each one passed./ Which is why the tasks and abuse of the Hebrews became worst and worst. The last plague was a direct debunking of Pharaoh’s claim as lord over all.

    The Living GOD was mocking Pharaoh’s dead idols and their false religious system. GOD exposed that Pharaoh had no power and was not a god himself and that these false gods and goddesses that Pharaoh believed he was above didn’t even exist and had no power over anything in GOD’s creation and that is what hardened his heart. The fact that he was just a man and not GOD was what Pharaoh refused to accept.

    Like I said earlier, The Holy Bible is a mosaic. A mosaic of Truth and Wisdom coupled with History and Prophecy. It’s a dictionary and a thesaurus, a science book etc… Part of it’s purpose among so many others is to reveal the true GOD and free humanity from the false pagan belief systems passed down from Babel that we are indoctrinated with from birth.
    Even Bible believing Christians today still ignorantly pass down many pagan superstitions like a black cat is bad luck, knocking on wood, not stepping on cracks so you don’t break your mothers back, don’t walk under ladders etc.. These are all fear inducing pagan superstitions in direct opposition to GOD;

    ” For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”

    2 Timothy 1:7

    And for those of you who have children or are going to have children etc.. if you want to avoid banging your head against a wall with rebellious teenagers then stop reading them harry potter and all those garbage books, shut off the damned television and the radio with all those nasty violent rebellious little cartoon characters and filthy mouthed rappers and start reading them the Bible. Focus also on the book of Proverbs and Start them young. It was written exactly for this purpose.

    And please stop relying on pastors just because they have the title “pastor” there are wolves in sheep’s clothing my friend and most are in the church. Be ye therefore wise as serpents yet harmless as doves. i.e. Know your enemy and their tactics but be not like unto them. Search the Scriptures and study the history. Become a Berean yourselves!

  • Nina Simone

    GOD is not two sided. HE is the same today tomorrow and forever. The reason you are having difficulty understanding these passages is you are projecting mans thoughts and behaviors onto GOD.

    First evil is NOT a tangible. Good and Evil are not equal in opposition. This is a Pagan Ying/Yang understanding not TRUTH.

    Evil is the lack of GOOD. Hate is the lack of LOVE. A lie is devoid of the Truth. Satan is not equal in opposition to GOD. They are not the flip side of the same coin. Again this is the pagan ying/yang doctrine.
    When GOD states “I make good and create evil” God is NOT saying HE also makes evil. What GOD is saying when HE creates good that the rebellious hearts of men who oppose GOD react in kind with evil.
    JESUS said “I come to bring a sword” People automatically think HE comes to intentionally cause people to fight and this is not so. JESUS very existence as KING of kings and LORD of lords causes evil, power hungry, vain men to respond as their evil hearts would have them do. i.e. they crucified HIM. GOD is not creating the evil, evil men are in response to GOD creating good.

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  • Manasseh

    It’s all about pre-existence election.

  • Jeremiah

    God hates. God is balanced and perfect in all ways. You cannot have good without evil or love without hate. God hates all workers of iniquity. He hates evil doers.

    A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. (Ecclesiastes 3:8 KJV)

    The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. (Proverbs 8:13 KJV)

    These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV)

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (Revelation 17:16 KJV)

    For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. (Romans 7:15 KJV)

    Jesus said. 
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 KJV)

    As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Romans 9:13 KJV)

    And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. (Revelation 17:16 KJV)

    Jesus said
    So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Revelation 2:15 KJV)

    Jesus said
    But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. (Revelation 2:6 KJV)

    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Hebrews 1:9 KJV)

    For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. (Titus 3:3 KJV)

    For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: (Ephesians 5:29 KJV)

    Jesus said
    I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. (John 17:14 KJV)

    Jesus said
    But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. (John 15:25 KJV)

    Jesus said
    But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, (Luke 6:27 KJV

    Jesus is saying here do not have vengeance. Loving your enemy does not mean to love satan.

    And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord. (Zechariah 8:17 KJV)

    The Lord God hath sworn by himself, saith the Lord the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein. (Amos 6:8 KJV)

    I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. (Amos 5:21 KJV)

    Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. (Amos 5:15 KJV)

    All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. (Hosea 9:15 KJV)

    Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers. Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods. (Jeremiah 44:3-5 KJV)

    For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. (Isaiah 61:8 KJV)

    For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord : (Proverbs 1:29 KJV)

    Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. (Psalms 139:21, 22 KJV)

    I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. (Psalms 119:163 KJV)

    Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way. (Psalms 119:128 KJV)

  • Jeremiah

    Thank You Jesus for being so wonderful.

  • Judah’s Voice


    You will be judged for misleading the people. Deuteronomy 4:2 should not be over looked. Stop trying to make The Most High look like a care bear!! He DOES hate, and he especially hates Edom. You are a Edomite yourself and trying to sugar coat what is already written to swallow the truth down with softer descriptions of who God really is and how he really thinks. Therefore here are two documentaries I think you need to view to get better understanding: “Whited out documentary” & “Whited out 2: Background check” – both can be view on youtube for free. And remember, it’s only the truth. Shalom.

  • coolpop121

    Israel and Edom are separate states, but Jesus told the Pharasees that they were not the children of God, and that he was sent to save the lost children of Israel, and they were the children of the Devil. And the Pharasees, were not the true Jew, but that they were the ancestor of the Edomite people, the off spring of Esau, who God hated. The true Jew was taken into captivity to Babylon and the false Jew the Jedean, Edomit , Jew, took over their land and called themselves Jews, and these are the Jews of today the false Jew. The true Jew is in Isreal, and the word Jew does not mean a religion but that they were born to Jew mother. And could believe what ever they wanted to believe and they don’t believe in the God of the Bible, they believe in the telmud the most sinister and evil book ever written.They are the Zionist today who are behind the persercution of the palistinian People, and behind the New World Order. Don’t believe me do your own research.

  • michael

    God dwells in eternity(absence of time) he is not subject to time like us . He knows the end from the begining hence prophecy. Did it ever occur to you that nothing ever occurs to god. God knows every thought you will ever have until the end of eternity. But it is heresy to teach you don’t have freewill. God just knows your heart afar off. The natural man really struggles with this one though trying yo fit god into our little peanut brains

  • thatwave

    I have come to realize that we can liken God to a narcissistic parent. He has scapegoat children that he hates for no reason and golden children whom he blesses. I think he knows from the moment we are conceived if he is going to bless or hate us. I am one of the Esaus, Ishmaels and Leahs of the world. I finally had to realize that God simply doesn’t love me and there’s no reason to keep faith anymore. It’s just a fact of life.

  • GregJS

    Found this blog after coming across that passage about Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 and wanted some clarification. I thought the answer given here was good. Haven’t checked yet to see whose blog this is, but thanks!

    Since I see your post, thatwave, thought I’d try responding, for what it’s worth, because I’ve noticed in myself a strong tendency – an addiction, really – to believing I’m especially rejected and unloved. It can actually feel good to wallow in that space – again, in an addictive way. But curling up into a tight little ball of “God doesn’t love me” is a choice. Could this be something you have done as well? Maybe not. But if so, have you tried, thatwave, repenting of making that choice (repenting of taking a “God doesn’t love me” stance)? Have you tried sincerely telling God, “Look, it feels kind of good to me – in a twisted, unhealthy way – to believe that You hate me; and I kind of don’t want to give that belief up. But deep down, I know this is a bad choice on my part, and I ask You to free me from it”? What do you think would happen if you sincerely asked God to free you from it? Are you already certain that He truly does hate you and that repentance and prayer would do no good? (Do you REALLY know that – for CERTAIN?) I strongly suspect that if you try this and give it a bit of time, you’ll find that God does love you, pretty much like He loves anyone else. Worth a shot?

    As for Jacob and Esau – could it be that, in God’s overall plan, He needed to assign very different roles to these two individuals/nations – to Jacob, a blessed role and to Esau, the opposite? But what if Esau and his people responded by saying to God, “Even if we are given the less fortunate role in Your great plan, Lord, we are grateful to be given ANY role. We are happy to play this role You have given us and will happily bear whatever hardship may be involved in it. We will play our assigned role to the best of our abilities. Please guide and strengthen us to do so.” If they responded like that, even if their lives on earth were less fortunate, would they not still be pleasing to God and would He not love them – maybe even love them all the more? Being “hated” might only be the “external” role God assigned to them and might have no bearing on how God feels about them at the level of their souls Just a thought. I’m new to all this kind of stuff.

  • sigzero

    “God does not hate anyone, but he does bless some nations more than others.” That Sir, is a lie.

  • Dan_Cartwright

    Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”

    God doesn’t hate anyone? Hear God speak:
    Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”

    Lev. 20:23, “Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.”

    Prov. 6:16-19, “There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.”

    Hosea 9:15, “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”

  • Tom Torbeyns

    Well written. Big truths in this article! 🙂
    You might be interested in Gregory Boyd’s view on Romans 9, which I really like. 🙂

  • Stephen “Steve” Sponsler

    Do I dare add summoning Jesus in to the Eucharist to the list?

  • Stephen “Steve” Sponsler

    To Jacob I have made myself Known, to Esau I have not..Those who are Known by God Love Him.God hating Esau is more of a reflection of who Esau is in his heart, not how God would react to a speck of mere dust in the universe.

  • Stephen “Steve” Sponsler

    No He did not. God is Love. Love cannot Hate whom He loves for He loved us first. What he hated was Jacobs disobedience, not his person.The solution to the problem of Romans 9:13 is to agree with those who say that “hate” means “hate,” but to also agree with the others who argue that neither Paul nor Malachi are talking about Esau’s eternal destiny (or anyone else for that matter).More critical still is to recognize that what God hated is not specifically Esau, for Malachi 1:3 was written many centuries after he had died, nor was God saying He hates the people of Edom. Instead, God hated how Edom behaved toward Israel. The Hebrew word used in Malachi 1:3 for “hate” (Heb., sanati) is used in various other places to speak of hatred for the sin and wickedness of people (cf. Psa 26:5; 101:3; 119:104, 128, 163; Prov 8:13; Jer 44:3; Amos 5:21; 6:8; Zech 8:17), not hatred for the people themselves. In light of what many other biblical prophets say about the actions and behavior of Edom (cf. Jer 49:7-22; Lam 4:21-22; Ezekiel 25:12-14; Amos 1:6-11), this is how we can understand God’s hatred in Malachi 1:3. God does not hate Edom; He hates how she has behaved. Specifically, God hated how Edom treated Israel. To the person who wrote they were convinced God hates them, that is what He hates, that they would think such a thing. Recall He is a jealous God? He is ‘Jealous in the Positive For Us’ not against like a mother bird who would like to have us under her wing of protection. For it rains on the just and the unjust alike; Psalm 100:5
    For the LORD is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues through all generations. Psalm 136:1
    Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. (something to consider, the LORD knows the heart of man which is ‘desperately wicked/sick/evil” “The human heart is desperately wicked, who can understand it”..If God did not Love his own creation it wouldn’t be here. If God did not love you there would be no reason for you to be in existence right now at all or even others that have not only not come to be Known by the Lord but refuse to even believe in him. God hates Sin as it is separation from Him and His Love…he hates anything to do with it not because it makes anyone a bad person but because it leaves people separated from Him to greater extents. If God did not Love people He would not have allowed himself to be killed at the hands of his own creation and then been Resurrected. Let us say you have a kitten soft cuddly and cutest thing in the world but it pees on your floor sometimes in training and bites you and might scratch you..will that make you hate the kitten..if so one would have to have a pretty low sense of the value of much more Love can God have than us..there is no’s impossible.

  • Craig

    He’s making up excuses because he knows who the edomites are and who the Israelites are. White people are the edomites and descendants of Esau. That’s why it ckeary says in the bible that Esau came out red and Jacob came out clinching his heel. Never did it say Jacob was red. God is also described in the bible with wooly white hair, hands and feet like burnt brass.

    25:24 When the time came for Rebekah to give birth, there were twins in her womb. 25:25 The first came out reddish all over, like a hairy garment, so they named him Esau. 25:26 When his brother came out with his hand clutching Esau’s heel, they named him Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when they were born.
    25:27 When the boys grew up, Esau became a skilled hunter, a man of the open fields, but Jacob was an even-tempered man, living in tents. 25:28 Isaac loved Esau because he had a taste for fresh game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.
    25:29 Now Jacob cooked some stew, and when Esau came in from the open fields, he was famished. 25:30 So Esau said to Jacob, “Feed me some of the red stuff – yes, this red stuff – because I’m starving!” (That is why he was also called Edom.)
    25:31 But Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.” 25:32 “Look,” said Esau, “I’m about to die! What use is the birthright to me?” 25:33 But Jacob said, “Swear an oath to me now.” So Esau swore an oath to him and sold his birthright to Jacob.
    25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and lentil stew; Esau ate and drank, then got up and went out. So Esau despised his birthright.
    Isaac, like his father Abraham, suffered with infertility in his marriage. The Bible does not tell us if the weakness is in Isaac or Rebekah or both.
    Isaac asks the Lord God to given them a child and He answered his prayer.
    Twenty years after Isaac married Rebekah, when he was 60, they had twin children.
    The children struggled in the womb and came out looking very different, first Esau, then Jacob.
    The Lord God’s prophesy unfolded as Esau and Jacob grew and the parents chose favorites, Isaac favored Esau because he enjoyed fresh game and Rebekah favored Jacob for his more-even temperament and more-settled lifestyle.
    Esau’s tendency to live from the flesh and moment-to-moment arrived home hungry and demanded some of the fresh stew that Jacob had just made. Jacob, seeing an opportunity, challenged the impetuous Esau to sell him his first-born birthright in exchange for the stew. Esau thoughtlessly agreed.
    The result of this seemingly childish interaction was that the second-born now could claim the unique rights of the first-born as Esau had rejected that gift of God, one that would have placed him in the line of succession to Jesus.

  • Rome Cruci


  • Rome Cruci



    Personally I believe we accept the word the way it is written but in this discussion it is God either hates an individual or a whole nation, God still holds the ability to hate. Nothing is impossible to God.

  • Tril81

    You differently made a lot of good pointers within that, but based on the scriptures I believe strictly what was inspired by God for the prophets to have written regarding Jacob and Esau. At the end of the day God knew he would love Jacob and would hate Esau. Only they didn’t know or the people of that day didn’t know the details why he would love one and hate the others as you described in your script. Like you said the bible is a puzzle and the understanding of it will be revealed to God’s chosen people and just like Satan he knows that his final judgement is approaching and he uses whatever vices and his puppets, the false prophets to distort the truth. The Devil is a deceiver.

  • Tril81

    Great point Stephen. Apparently Esau doesn’t love God because he didn’t keep Gods commandments neither did he obey his parents. So, that in itself should confirm God hates Esau.

  • Tril81

    Yes, and Esau was and is an evildoer. That’s another reason why God hates him.

    Genesis 36:8 (KJV)

    8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

    Hebrews 12:16 (KJV)

    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

  • Tril81

    You must be an Israelite?

  • Tril81

    Hey. Maybe you can post a link to them here please.

  • Tril81

    Well actually Esau was blessed with riches of earth this present day. Read in Romans when Esau asked or begged if you will what was for him from his father. His father gives him the answer. Very prophetic.

  • muzak1861

    Bill this is where I am I think men have used this verse Romans 9:13, to prove that God does indeed make choices among men, but I think it is in the context of Nations as well, I am not a Calvinist nor am I a Arminian . I do believe that anyone who will be in heaven was chosen by God in Christ before the world began, but this verse is a poor example of eternal election. The principle taught in 1 Corinthians 2:14 necessitates the regeneration of natural man so he can know what God has freely given him in Christ! What that man does with that news has no effect on their eternal destiny 2 Timothy 2:11-19.

  • muzak1861

    Rick, God does indeed elect persons to eternal salvation, for me the issue is only that Romans 9:13 is a poor verse to prove that Esau was bound for the Lake of fire while Jacob was bound for eternal glory. It is a great verse to demonstrate that God has every right to make choices regarding men, or nations to bring about His desired results, and in this case He desired to create a Nation through which He would bring the Promised man child from Genesis 3:15-16, The fact that God must chose whom Christ would perfect forever is a given and they were chosen in Christ before the world began, when we were without strength Christ died for us, having reconciled us to God legally by His work alone.

  • Ellen L. VanSlyke

    I believe you are wrong to say that God did not actually hate Esau when scripture says He id hate him. Why don’t you just accept what the word says? Could it possibly be that God did hate the individual as well as the nation? I don’t like that you struggle against the arguments that, in my humble opinion, prove you wrong. It’s ok to be wrong once in a while. You are human.

  • dune00

    Hi Bill, I’ve been reading tons of information through scripture that points to Europeans being the physical seed of Esau/Edom today. The book of Jasher states that Esau and Rome eventually became one nation. I know at the height of the Roman Empire, all of Asia (modern day Europe) was conquered by the Romans. Are then all of the inhabitants of Europe today Roman/Edomites?
    The scripture says “Esau is the end of the world and Jacob is the beginning of it that followeth”. The ones who are ruling at the “end of the world” now are Europeans (specifically those who call themselves Jews). Can you enlighten us on these scriptures? Who is Esau/Edom today? The only “red” and “hairy” man I know is the so called white man. Thank you, Bill.

  • dune00
  • “Who is Esau/Edom today?”

    This question makes no sense to me. Esau was a person who lived thousands of years ago and Edom was a nation that existed thousands of years ago. They don’t exist today, so I don’t understand your question.

    As for the Book of Jasher, it is referred to a couple times in the Old Testament, but aside from that there is nothing else known about it. We have no idea what its contents are.

    If you are referring to an apocryphal Book of Jasher that was written in the 1600’s AD or later, I don’t believe any scholar thinks it contains anything that can be dated back to biblical times. It is a product of modern writers living thousands of years after the real Book of Jasher was written.

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  • Uri Yisrael

    Edom (Hebrew) = Idumea (Greek) Bill. The Edomites DEFINITELY exist today because Antipater the Idumean existed. The Herodian Dynasty is all Edomites and they existed Bill! Look at the book “Classical Biblical Baby Names” by Judith Tropea and look up Esau. It says that he is the forefather of the Roman empire through Romulus. So do the Romans no longer exist today?

    Here’s a in depth breakdown to help further your understanding and accept the truth that you Bill are an Edomite that the scriptures speak of.

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    In that same passage where God is described it also said a sword proceeded from his mouth. This is symbolic, metaphoric language and has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was black or white. All colors are shades of one.

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    Bless you, John. What a tragedy for a father and son to experience all because of false teaching. God is not willing that any should perish. God reconciled the world of sinners to himself 2000 yrs ago by abolishing the spiritual death that Adam gave to all mankind. Believe and receive. We had nothing to do with being born in sin; it was a gift from Adam. We had nothing to do with being reconciled to God; God became sin for us so we could be reconciled to the Father of our spirit. It is finished. ‘There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..’ Ro 8:1. NO condemnation. I pray that you and your son will be set free from condemnation and walk in the newness of life. Freedom in Christ Jesus!

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    Sir, with all due respect, you are deceived. The law of ‘firstfruits’ prove that all have been pardoned and reconciliation is the message for ALL. ‘If the first pinch of dough offered to the Lord is declared HOLY then the whole batch is HOLY.’ Both James and Paul said that they as part of Israel were ‘firstfruits.’ Election and presdestination pertained to Israel. ‘God is not willing that any should perish.’

    We had nothing to do with being ‘born in sin.’ It was a gift from Adam. We had nothing to do with being ‘born again’ as it is a gift from God. The message of reconciliation is what Paul taught. Be reconciled to God for ‘there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.’ Ro 8:1. The FREE GIFT of Life is available to one and all. Isaiah taught the same message as John did: ‘Come buy milk and wine WITHOUT COST’ and John penned the words of Christ, ‘Come to the LIVING WATER and Drink FREELY.’ Rev 21:6; Is 55:1

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    I like this post. However, this does not change God’s image: pos and neg. There is only ONE God. Religion has taught that there is a good god and a bad god (boogey man). This is pagan also. God created both poles of polarity in his image. A good look at an atom or a battery will confirm this truth in a believer’s mind. There is no power in one pole. We must have both to empower, create and light up anything. ‘All things (both pos and neg) work together for our good.’

    What you have said about Jacob proves this. He experienced both good and evil but it worked out for HIS good. He had to crucify his SERPENT, his flesh. Just as Jesus had to overcome his flesh, so do we all. But God has provided us with everything we need to do so.

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    I understand and have experienced this same thing. First, lets pray and ask God for wisdom as he has told us to. God created in his own image: Both pos and neg (“+” & “-“). It takes both poles of polarity to create, empower, or light up our lives. There is only ONE God and he created in his image. There is no gender in the spirit world. Is 45:7. God created both good and evil, life and death, pos and neg. One cannot exist without the other. Religion gave us a boogey man which is pagan doctrine. The SERPENT is our flesh. Just as Moses lifted up the SERPENT, so the Son of Man was lifted up, his SERPENT, the flesh. The flesh is opposed to the spirit. This is what is meant by ‘his seed (SERPENT) and her seed (Spirit). One is earthly and the other heavenly. flesh vs spirit. The bible is about this polarity: 2 trees, 2 seeds, 2 mts, 2 women, 2 cities. It takes both poles. ‘I will put ENMITY between your seed and her seed.’
    ‘The carnal MIND is ENMITY towards God.’ flesh vs spirit
    Tree of Death vs Tree of LIFE
    Hagar vs Sarah
    earthly Jerusalem vs Heavenly Jerusalem

    Jer 8:8 The scribes have lied. The Jewish people loved fables.

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    One cannot love without hating. Pos and neg are God’s image.

    Leviticus 20:23 – “And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.”

    Leviticus 26:30 – “And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.”

    Deuteronomy 32:19 – “And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.”

    Psalm 5:5 – “The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”

    Psalm 5:6 – “Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.”

    Psalm 10:3 – “For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.”

    Psalm 11:5 – “The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.”

    Psalm 53:5 – “There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.”

    Psalm 73:20 – “As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.”

    Psalm 78:59 – “When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:”

    Psalm 106:40 – “Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.”

    Proverbs 6:16-19 – “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”

    Proverbs 22:14 – “The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the LORD shall fall therein.”

    Lamentations 2:6 – “And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.”

    Hosea 9:15 – “All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.”

    Zechariah 11:8 – “Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.”

    Malachi 1:3 – “And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

    Romans 9:13 – “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

    Isaiah 45:7 life and death, good an evil, pos and neg are God’s creation in his image.

  • Joshua Wells

    Why would a loving God create beings that he knew would simply end up burning and dieing for all eternity? Why did he create such imperfect filthy rags and then become enraged at their imperfection. Who among us asked to be thrust into existence? It would seem to me that if God was love, he would have seen the terrible things that would be fall humans are just create a dog…..

  • Joshua Wells

    I am agnostic, I used to think I was a Christian but the more I examined scripture and the God in it. I realized that God was not what I have always thought God was. I am terrified of the God of the bible. Literally frozen in fear of this murderous monster

  • Joshua, I don’t know what parts of the Bible scare you about God, but you should consider reading a series of blog posts I wrote a couple years ago. Here is the link:

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    You certainly do not understand how God made man in his image: “+” & “-” made he them and they were ONE. There is no gender in the spirit world, these are the character of God’s polarity. The bible says that God caused David to number Israel; and in other passage it says Satan caused David to number Israel. God sends evil spirits. There is only ONE GOD and he is the AUTHOR of POLARITY. It’s pagan Persian beliefs in two entities, one good and one evil. The boogey man theory is a lie.

  • Judith Ann Olive Maness

    God is not racist and is not partial to race, gender or ancestrial birthright. The inheritance was never reckoned after birthright but after a PROMISE. The PROMISED SEED, the MESSIAH, is the eternal covenant promised in the Garden of Eden and ratified with Abraham. Gal 3:17.

    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free, for we are all ONE in Christ Jesus.’ Jesus is the equalizer and has reconciled all mankind to the Father of our spirit.

  • Clinton Walker

    Hello Bill,
    Please refer Joshua to John 15:9 . The beauty of God’s love to us by denying ones self , and taking up HIS cross (which Esau or the nations which Esau represents did not ) is clearly shown in Jesus’s declaration of love to those who abide in HIS love. Joshua’s life statement of being an agnostic , devoid of spiritual belief , is a mis-statement if he says he is in fear of murderous monster God. However , if Joshua can believe that , let’s just try to ask him to start believing that Jesus was the son of God who became human/God and lived and died for him.

  • believein1

    God does not hate anyone? Do you consider all mentions of “hate” as hyperbole? What about wrath, vengeance, and anger? What is the definition of abomination?

  • Nani

    Do you believe Jesus is white?

  • No. He was Semitic.

  • JK

    The doctrine of election certainly does raise questions and when it is preached or taught should be done so with the intent to bring men to the knowledge of the truth As The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy …..For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe…….When we teach or preach we should always preach or teach in love to bring men to the truth of the gospel and certainly never preach or teach a doctrine to turn men away from the truth.

    Nevertheless at the same time if this doctrine is not preached or taught from pulpits just because a preacher says he does not understand it and therefore does not to even attempt to study it as he should be doing anyhow ……study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needed not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth……then I would say that that preacher or teacher may be found guilty as a pastor of shunning to declare unto his hearers the whole counsel of God. ……Ephesians 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. When we read in Ephesians chapter 1 we cannot even get to verse 4 before the Apostle Paul is referring to election to the same Ephesians elders and church at Ephesus who were addressed in Acts 20 And in which he declared that he did not shun to declare unto them the whole counsel of God, and yes we must rightfully conclude from the writing in Ephesians that the teaching of the doctrine of election was part of that counsel that he was referring to in Acts 20.

    In our physical appetite as humans we most certainly find foods that we like and certain foods that we dislike because of our taste but if we only enjoyed foods that were a sweet taste to our palate I would dare say that we would be in a very physically unhealthy state. And so I believe the same applies to our spiritual palate and in an even more necessary way. Just because we do not like the doctrine of election because it is not desirable to our spiritual palate does not mean that it should not be preached….fed to….or eaten……listened to. Suppose As a child you did not like broccoli or spinach or some other food that was healthy for you, did your parents refuse to feed it to you?… Well……mine didn’t……would a good parent feed you sweets at every meal and only sweets? Of course not, and neither should a good minister if he is at all concerned about the spiritual health of his hearers.

    So we may ask the question then……just what is or may be the counsel that God has for us in the teaching or the preaching of the doctrine of election…? Well…..could it be that the teaching or the preaching of this doctrine exposes pride in the heart of men…..? So let’s say that we preach it and or teach it as it is read then. No doctoring, no altering of the contents, to make it more palatable to our taste and let’s just read it as it is read.

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    The Calling of the Gentiles
    19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Is there unrighteousness with God if he chooses to save one sinner over another…..? And let’s say that one sinner is chosen to salvation and another is chosen to condemnation, then doesnt the one chosen to condemnation also not deserve it…..? What part of a sinner deserves salvation. Of course the answer is no part. Is it not pride that rails on election……? And why do not men come to Christ….? Is it not because of pride….? And does the chosen sinner come to Christ with a proud heart…? The answer is No, Of course not. So then what is taking place here. The doctrine of election humbles men to bring men to Christ with a humble heart or it hardens men and they turn away from Christ and away from God with a proud heart.

    Do not be too hard on the teacher who taught this doctrine to the young man and the response of the young man was to continue in his sin. If the teacher was presenting and teaching this doctrine properly Could it be that the teaching of the doctrine of election revealed the sinful pride in the heart of the young man? Could he not just as easily also said if he had a good heart ….Dad, I do not want to be among the sinful wicked whom God has not chosen, I want to be among the holy who are God’s chosen…..? Could he not also have said to his father I am troubled by the teaching of the teacher and I want to make sure that I am among the chosen people of God who have a desire and whom God works in for the desire of holiness…? From what I read it appears that he didn’t but rather used the teaching to harden his heart towards sinning. The teaching or preaching of the doctrine of election just as it is read either softens or hardens the hearts of men, which is what the apostle Paul seems to be referring to here. And how can the young man come to Christ and God properly with a humble heart when he has a heart filled with pride and wanting to continue in his sin? God calls men unto holiness and He gives His grace unto the humble. If God calls his chosen unto holiness, and He does, 1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called unto uncleanness but unto holiness, then what right does a man have to grumble that he was not chosen, when he only has a desire for sinfulness yet God offers unto him holiness and he says……..No I do not want that?

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  • sheckyshabaz

    People still don’t get it. This is a story about Law and Grace which is the constant theme throughout the entire bible, both old and new testaments. Why people still can’t see this is because you have been indoctrinated with religion and not love. This has nothing to do with Esau or Jacob as individual people and i can prove that. This is a story about figurative language, but because few people understand the heart of God they read it literally in a mindset of fear. Now let’s get into this. Genesis 25:27 sets the comparison between the two brothers. Esau is a hunter with great skill and Jacob stays at home. To us in 2017 that seems like Jacob is lazy one while Esau is the hard worker. By society’s standard Esau is the better of the two brothers. Jacob is a degenerate. Yet the society we have is not God’s style, but rather man’s. Esau was valuble/loved because of his effort while Jacob was not loved because of his effort. Law = Effort, Grace = No effort. Clearly Esau represents the Law while Jacob represents Grace. The OT way of thinking was “Do good and be accepted”, while the NT message was the opposite “You are accepted without any effort of your own”. This was the grace message Jesus taught. Why do you think the pharisees were so mad at Jesus accepting sinners, tax collectors, adulterers, etc? It went against their message of law. Let’s keep going.

    Genesis 25:34 – Esau hated his birthright. Birthrights are freely given; you have no control over your birthright. Esau did not like this because under the precursor of law, one must EARN all they receive while under Grace you are freely given it because you are a child of God’s.

    There’s plenty more, but you should get the point by now. God does not value, like, or enjoy Law over Grace, hence why Grace and Truth came by Jesus, who’s message is all about GRACE. This example is about comparing Law and Grace before the Law even came into being.

  • Tee

    Read the book of OBADIAH, it speaks of Edom’s Faith

  • Tee

    Scripture, do not lye. Read the book of OBADIAH, THAT IS THE FAITH OF EDOMITE, which is called Edom. Which is Esau,s decendant.

  • Tee


    for precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line; here a little there a little.
    Isaiah 28:10-13

  • Tee

    Amen….it’s the truth….the truth hurts especially to Edom.

  • Tee