Tough Questions Answered

A Christian Apologetics Blog

Thoughts On This Past Sunday

We had The Lord’s Supper this past Sunday.  For the Mormons reading this, the Lord’s Supper is essentially the same as partaking of “The Sacrament”.  It was a wonderful experience!  We started the service by Baptizing several new members/believers and the Spirit of Christ filled the chapel the entire evening.  Some close friends and their children were among those baptized… it brought tears to my eyes!!

Our Pastor shared some thoughts I found to be particularly significant in light of the common Latter Day Saint claim all Christian denominations are in disagreement with one another.  At the beginning of The Lord’s Supper he said:

“This is not Cornerstone’s (our church) table or the Baptist’s table.  This is Christ’s table.  If you are a believer in Jesus Christ, no matter what denomination you belong to, you are welcome to partake.  For we are all one family… all of us who are believer’s in The Lord Jesus Christ.  This is His meal.  Please feel free to partake.”

We, meaning all believer’s no matter what church you attend, are all one family! 

I had a similar experience a few weeks ago while attending a Methodist Church.  I, as a Baptist, was invited to speak to a Sunday School class (sounds like disagreement, huh!!) and decided to attend their service as well.  They were having The Lord’s Supper and, while blessing the bread and juice, the Minister expressed the exact same view.  Knowing I am a member of another denomination he freely gave me The Lord’s Supper with a smile on his face.  It was wonderful!

My being invited to teach Sunday School at a Methodist Church as well as the thoughts shared by both of these ministers are in direct contradiction to the Mormon claim all Christian Denominations are in disagreement and fight against one another.  In my personal experience nothing could be farther from the truth!  The Church I attend does not profess itself to be “God’s only true church on the face of the earth”.  Instead we, as members of  Cornerstone Baptist Church, profess ourselves to be part of Christ’s Global Church…  which consists of all who confess Him as Lord and Savior –  whether they be Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Non-Denominational, etc.  

Many Mormons fail to understand that while the denominations may disagree on minor, non-essential issues, most of us are in agreement on the essentials -The Nature of God, The Nature of Man, Deity of Christ, Salvation By Faith Alone, etc.  These are issues which effect salvation and which unite us all as Christ’s Body of Believers.  Other minor, non-essential issues (whether to partake of The Lord’s Supper Weekly or Monthly, Baptism by immersion or sprinkling, etc) are of no consequence to salvation and thus we grant liberty in these areas.  In contrast, the reason we cannot accept members of the LDS Faith as Christian is precisely because they are in disagreement with us on the essential issues – those which do have an impact on salvation.

As Augustine said…

“In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.”

All praise be to Christ!

Darrell


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Comments

  • ladonnamorrell

    hey darrell,

    remember me? I thought it was interesting that you said, “we can’t accept Mormons as Christians” as if YOU mattered. (no offense of course)

    Christians are those who follow Christ.

    Also, I don’t think ANY LDS member would say that TODAY Christian Denominations fight against each other. I think you are referring to the days of Joseph Smith and the contentions of that time. I don’t think Christians give a fig newton about each other nowadays! They all do what they want.
    Bingo anyone?

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Hey Ladonna! Welcome back.

    No offense taken at all! My skin is thick!

    “Christians are those who follow Christ.”

    You are correct. The operative word here is Christ. He is not the spirit born son of another God. He is God. Therefore, (no offense here) :) Mormons are not following Him.

    “Also, I don’t think ANY LDS member would say that TODAY Christian Denominations fight against each other.”

    I have had MANY, MANY LDS tell me this. To be exact when my wife and I were leaving the church the Bishop met with me and talked about this. He asked me which church I was going to join because “they all believe so differently and can’t agree with one another”. I got a call from the stake president who said the same thing.

    “I don’t think Christians give a fig newton about each other nowadays!”

    You must not be aware of the interdenominational ministries that exist. In the town I live in (and this is not uncommon) many of the Ministers from different denominations meet together monthly to discuss issues and work together. Fortunately, you are simply uninformed on this matter.

    Have a good day!

    Darrell

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    One more thought I had…

    “you said, “we can’t accept Mormons as Christians” as if YOU mattered.”

    The LDS Church’s actions testify to the fact that what Christendom thinks about your beliefs DOES IN FACT MATTER. Otherwise, you guys would not have talks given by General Authorities every single year making the claim that “despite what people say about us we are Christians”. Why even bother responding if what “we” think doesn’t matter?

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    I guess my point was not that YOU don’t matter,(that might be rude, and I am very nice) it is that the ONLY opinion I CARE about is the Saviors. No one elses opinion matters. HE knows that we follow Him.
    (interestingly enough, Mormons don’t accuse Christians of NOT FOLLOWING Christ….but (most) Christians feel very free to make the accusation against LDS)
    next…my “fig newton” comment didn’t mean they don’t CARE ABOUT each other….I meant they don’t MIND if other denominations have different creeds. In other words, I don’t think different denominations CONTEND with each other. But they definitely differ. My baptist friends get all uptight about sprinkling and my Nazarene friends frown on dancing. YOU are uninformed if YOU THINK these differences don’t rankle a few people here and there. Hey, maybe you should all thank Mormons for “bringing” you all together to fight against US!! (thanks Huckabee)

    as for General Authorities talking about current events with their talks about “Christianity”. My personal opinion is that these talks were given for the benefit of the church members. kind of like “ammo” when the Christians start throwing darts.
    better yet, our shield. how many non-members do you think listen to General Conference? probably very few…except the ones taking notes for future anti-mormon blogs!! :)

    Are you still a “celebrity” after all these years…you know the “ex-Mormon” who now sees the light and dishes all the dirt about the LDS Church?
    Is that why you are a visiting guest speaker?

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    I agree with you about the talks in General Conference being addressed towards LDS members. These talks are designed to reassure the membership that, despite their differences with the Christian Denominations, they are still Christian. They are basically trying to counter the effects of those of us whose “opinions don’t matter”. :)

    “interestingly enough, Mormons don’t accuse Christians of NOT FOLLOWING Christ…”

    I beg to differ on this one. The sharing of the first vision story during the discussions which declares us all to be “wrong”, our professors “corrupt” and “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” is pretty strong language. Not to mention all the talks by General Authorities throughout the years condemning Christendom as a whole. It is really not until the last 20 – 30 years that Mormons have softened the language they use in pubic towards Christians. It is all part of a, for lack of a better word, “PR Campaign” to become more mainstream in a effort to make it easier to convert.

    No, I am not a celebrity and never have been one in my community. My going to the Methodist Church had nothing to do with Mormonism. I was asked by a friend to come teach an apologetics lesson about the Historical Reliability Of The New Testament. It was a ton of fun!

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    hi darrell,

    you said,”I beg to differ on this one. The sharing of the first vision story during the discussions which declares us to all be “wrong”, our professors to be “corrupt” and “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” is pretty strong language.”

    Regarding the First Vision. Those words belong to Christ. HE JUDGED the Churches of THAT day. To Joseph’s humble petition, THAT was the ANSWER. Do Not join ANY of the Churches. Joseph made NO assumptions. He made NO judgments.

    Mormons today (I speak of the ones I know) have great respect for Christians. My children have teachers that are Christian and I really appreciate the fact that I can talk to them about prayer and faith. California has a lot more Mormons than where you live. I see ALOT more interaction between the two than you probably do. The Christians I know believe that if someone is NOT saved they are going to hell. period. No ifs, ands or buts. LDS, of course, have a different belief….we know of the TRUE plan of Salvation and a Loving Father that gives EQUAL opportunity to ALL of HIS children to hear and accept the Gospel. That is ONE area where Christendom really fails! No PLAN!! If you are lucky enough to be born in the right century, and lucky enough to be born on the right continent, and lucky enough to stumble over a Christian missionary you MIGHT be lucky enough to be saved.
    I am SO grateful that MY LORD has a plan for EVERYBODY!! For every one of HIS CHILDREN!! Not just the “lucky” ones.

    well, gotta go, the kids are getting up.

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    I actually lived in Nevada for a while… so I lived in an environment where the Mormons were just as numerous (actually even more numerous) than Christians. I have many members of my family who are still LDS and they, along with many other LDS I know, always express respect for Christians. I am not implying they show disrespect in how they act or treat Christians personally. I find the opposite to be the rule as well… you don’t find many Christians in our area treating Mormons poorly on a personal level. While I was LDS I was the only Mormon in the company I worked for… most were Protestant Christians. Not one of them said anything degrading to me. They all treated me with respect. You will always find the kooks out there (on boths sides). However, as a rule, I believe on both sides today we treat each other on a personal level with respect. On a corporate level the story is a little bit different though.

    The point I am making is this… I always find it funny when LDS try to pull out the victim card… saying “Why do you Christians say we are not Christian and perscecute us? We don’t persecute you or talk badly about you.” This is simply not being honest because Mormons come after the teachings of us Christians just as actively as we do their’s. The claim that Christ and God told JS that all us Christians are “wrong”, “currupt” and “teach for doctrines the commandments of men” is very much an attack. This is shared every day by Missionaries during the First Discussion. It is one of the FOUNDATIONAL CLAIMS of the LDS Church because it speaks to why you claim a restoration was needed. In addition, Mormon missionaries actively try to convert everyone – Christians included. They approach them with the claim that their church does not teach right doctrine and lacks authority. Another point surrounds the Temple Cermony. Today’s ceremony shows satan talking about Christians saying they “teach the doctrines of men mingled with scripture”. Just a few years ago the Temple Ceremony was much more graphic in this area, portraying a Christian preacher running around saying he would preach for money. How are these not attacks against what I believe? I could just as easily ask, “Why do you Mormons persecute me and attack what I believe saying it is not right.” I could play the victim role as well.

    However, I don’t see anything wrong with this – on either side. I believe that if a person believes strongly they are right, there is nothing wrong with making that claim. Mormons think they have the truth so them trying to convert Christians over to their camp is a natural consequence. Christians believe we have the truth, so we are free to say Mormons don’t have it and are not Christian because they teach “another Christ” as prophesied in The Bible. Both sides have every right to make their claims in a civil, law abiding manner. So, I just think Mormons should stop trying to play the victim card by saying we Christians persecute their church… for their actions attack our beliefs just as heavily.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    i could care less about being a “victim”. That does not bother me in the least. bring it on! persecution doesn’t scare me or intimidate me. but….where did i play the “victim” card? my comment beginning “interestingly enough”?? that can hardly be characterized as playing the victim…it was just an aside! I actually love a good fight! it doesn’t phase me in the least.

    if i recall, you were the one who got huffy last time :)

    maybe we can reach a compromise on that issue, too. would you settle for “having your name blotted out?”

    ladonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    “i could care less about being a “victim”.”

    Good to hear. You appeared to be heading there with your comment about how “Mormons don’t accuse Christians of NOT FOLLOWING Christ….but (most) Christians feel very free to make the accusation against LDS”. It is good to see that I was mistaken about your position.

    “if i recall, you were the one who got huffy last time”

    I would say that I did not enjoy being attacked personally. From what I recall you even had some Mormon’s question your reasoning for attacking me personally. It is perfectly acceptable to make your case for why you think Mormonism is true and Christianity is false – vice-versa for Christians. The key is to stick with the issues and not attack the individual. Ad hominem attacks do not deal with the issues and they make the attacker seem desperate.

    “maybe we can reach a compromise on that issue, too. would you settle for “having your name blotted out”?”

    I prefer to stick with the truth… I had my name removed. :)

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    hey darrell,

    i notice you didn’t comment on the fact that Christians “lack a plan” of salvation for people not lucky enough to hear the good news of the Gospel.

    any comments?

    also, here is a question for you:

    Why would the Savior say “keep my commandments” and “endure to the end” if HE KNEW that when we were “saved” we would do it anyway? Why a commandment? Why books and books of the bible teaching us what to “DO” if it would “come naturally”?

    (another aside: a friend of mine just recently told me that he left the church for a period of time in the early 90′s and is now preparing for the temple after having been rebaptized. He told me of the process of returning. It was long and hard. Turns out that IF you have your name removed from the rolls of the Church, this is considered “apostacy”. That is a sin. And it is tougher to get re-baptized than when a moral sin is committed….just in case you were wondering! :)

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    “I notice you didn’t comment on the fact that Christians “lack a plan” of salvation for people not lucky enough to hear the good news of the Gospel.”

    Bill actually touched on this some here. Check it out. He has a link to another article that covers this some as well. I would be happy to discuss this with you in detail because, contrary to what Mormons claim about Christianity, we do have responses to this objection. But before we go there, let me start out by saying this… It is easy to come up with an answer to tough questions like this if one does not consider The Bible to be authoritative… for you can do exactly what JS did… ignore what The Bible says and write your own scripture with answers that “tickle your ears”. If what I am looking for is an answer that makes me feel good (that is exactly what you are looking for here… saying the Christian answer does not feel good and Mormonism’s answer does so it must be right), why should we stop with the LDS answer? Afterall, the New Age answer is even more comforting. Why not go with that one?

    “Why would the Savior say “keep my commandments” and “endure to the end” if HE KNEW that when we were “saved” we would do it anyway? Why a commandment? Why books and books of the bible teaching us what to “DO” if it would “come naturally”?”

    This is actually a great question. First, let me say that the LDS caricature of what Christians believe is by and large wrong. I have seen LDS claim that Christians just throw the commandments out as unimportant. While there are always exceptions to the rule you will find most Christians do in fact hold the commandements to be important. There are several reasons for them…

    1. They are a mirror by which we can see our depravity
    2. They show us how we cannot ever live up to God’s standard
    3. They give us a model to live by
    4. Keeping them will actually lead to a healthier happier life

    etc, etc, etc.

    The key point is we cannot BY OURSELVES keep the commandments and please God – we need Him. As hard as we might try it is not until God saves and regenerates us that we are able to start the process of sanctification. Once regenerated we are given a DESIRE to follow God. The Holy Spirit will then work in us to help us acheive this. Because of the love we have for our Savior we will want to please Him and follow His commandments. This has nothing to do with receiving rewards or getting a higher spot in the Celestial Kingdom… it is totally done out of love. We are already saved and should live a life which models this salvation. Nevertheless, we should not think for one moment that it is through our own efforts we please God or are saved. It is totally His work which saves us based upon our expression of faith in Jesus Christ.

    Hope that helps some… feel free to ask questions and I can clarify. This is a tough subject for LDS to get their mind around as most have been steeped in works based theology for so long – as I heard someone once say “the difference is a razors edge but it makes all the difference in the world”… I think that was CS Lewis? It applies well to the difference between Christians and LDS on this subject.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    hey darrell,

    loved the jab at Joseph Smith…spoken like a true apostate! er, I mean a former member! :)

    I had already read the silly post by Bill. It was pure gobble-dee-gook. None of it is scriptural. It actually made me laugh! MY Father in Heaven LOVES ALL His children! And ALL will be given equal opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel. Sorry, but you guys fail in this department. (and there is my return jab..from an apostate Methodist!)

    you said:

    “There are several reasons for them…(keeping the commandments)

    1. They are a mirror by which we can see our depravity
    2. They show us how we cannot ever live up to God’s standard
    3. They give us a model to live by
    4. Keeping them will actually lead to a healthier happier life”

    HOW ABOUT THIS: Because they are COMMANDMENTS!! Why is OBEDIENCE such a nasty concept to you guys?? I honestly don’t think the Lord wants us to feel depraved and hopeless! His Love, commandments and Gospel EMPOWER people! And why the convoluted explanations??!! It is what it is!!

    You said:
    “The key point is we cannot BY OURSELVES keep the commandments and please God – we need Him.”

    Of course we need God…every hour of every day we need God, but the commandments ARE attainable…because we are like Him. We have inherited some of His divine nature. Why would He ask us to live by rules that were unattainable? He wouldn’t! The Atonement of Jesus Christ, when accepted, gives us power!

    you said:
    ” This has nothing to do with receiving rewards or getting a higher spot in the Celestial Kingdom… it is totally done out of love.”

    Who are YOU to say that Mormons don’t obey out of LOVE?
    I LOVE the Lord, that is why I obey Him. I want to live with Him and my family someday, and that is why I seek the Celestial Kingdom. IT IS ALL ABOUT LOVE!

    you said:
    “as I heard someone once say “the difference is a razors edge but it makes all the difference in the world”… I think that was CS Lewis? It applies well to the difference between Christians and LDS on this subject.”

    Actually the difference is like the Grand Canyon!

    So, you really can’t answer these questions very effectively. Don’t worry, I already knew that. That is why I was seeking the true Gospel. And when I found it, I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints!
    I honestly feel so sorry for you. You have given up the truth and ALL that really matters for a silly, pretend religion. A religion with NO leadership, NO authority, NO priesthood, and NO true doctrine.(oh, maybe a little truth in there…but not much) A religion that is a dead branch off of a dead tree…(to quote the Ensign)

    When we were reading in the Book of Mormon last week, we came across the scripture where Alma meets up with the Sons of Mosiah. He is so happy to see them because he loves them, but most importantly “they are still brethren in the Lord”. I thought about you and your state of affairs. It is probably hard for former friends to see you. You have apostatized instead of remaining true to your covenants.
    There is a certain camaraderie with members of the Church. Next week when we fly up to conference, we will have LOADS to talk about with any other stranger in line! We will probably find someone we are related to, or someone who knows our Bishop, or neighbor! So, I can completely relate to Alma and his feelings! YOU HAVE THROWN ALL THAT AWAY!! I can only imagine what your parents-in-law think of you!

    I am so grateful that I listened to the Holy Ghost! I am so grateful to have the Spirit as my constant companion (another thing you gave up).

    Temple work is only for those who DIDN’T have the chance to hear the Gospel while on the earth. You have blown that chance, too. Your only hope is to repent and TRY to get your membership back. Otherwise you are in for the biggest shock of your life when you cross that veil!

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    “…spoken like a true apostate! er, I mean a former member!”

    I am fine with you calling me an apostate from the Mormon Church. Because I do not believe it is a church that follows Jesus Christ, I actually take it as a badge of honor to be an apostate from it. I left a lie to follow Jesus Christ and Him alone… that is an honor.

    “I had already read the silly post by Bill. It was pure gobble-dee-gook. None of it is scriptural.”

    Ladonna, I say this with all the love in my heart, you really need to work on your method of debating. Calling something gobble-dee-gook might work for an elementary school student but, really, come on. If you disagree with something Bill or I say, you need to offer more than mere name calling to show why you think it is false. Otherwise, why comment?

    “MY Father in Heaven LOVES ALL His children! And ALL will be given equal opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel.”

    Couple of errors here. First of all, we are not ALL children of God. Check out John 1:12 and see my post here. Second of all, you might want to do a little more research on your claim that God wants us ALL to go to Heaven. Check out Romans chapter 9. Why did He create Pharoh? Certainly not to go to Heaven.

    “HOW ABOUT THIS: Because they are COMMANDMENTS!! Why is OBEDIENCE such a nasty concept to you guys??”

    Not sure why you think I am claiming that obedience is a bad thing. I never said we shouldn’t try to keep the commandments. Did you even read my comment? I specifically said… “Because of the love we have for our Savior we will want to please Him and follow His commandments.” Where you and I differ in this area does not involve whether one should try to keep the commandments or not. We both believe one should try to keep the commandments. Not sure why you are trying to argue with me on this.

    Couple of questions for you…

    1. Do you believe someone can keep the commandments perfectly in this life?

    2. If you were to die today, can you say with confidence you would go to The Celestial Kingdom?

    Have a good afternoon!

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    darrell,

    I am not patient enough to “debate”. You have been a member of the LDS church. Surely you understand MY perspective on the “gobble-dee-gook”. It is convoluted fiction. It goes over and under and around the subject…quoting scripture here and there but never really proving the premise. Sorry but i like the plain simple truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It means what it says…no need for acrobatics to get it “to fit”.

    “First of all, we are not ALL children of God. ”

    boy, the brain washing has gone deep! People will be judged by the knowledge they have and what they have done with it. YOU are in a worse position than Pharoh!!

    Answers:

    1. Yes, with the aid of repentance and the Grace of God and our Savior, I believe I can someday be perfect.

    2. I am not sure how ANYONE knows if they will obtain the Celestial Kingdom (or “Heaven”). After all, we must ALL wait for the Judgment. And it won’t be known if we “endured to the end” UNTIL THE END.

    here’s one for you:

    how do you explain baptism for the dead?

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    “I am not patient enough to “debate”.”

    Then you really should not be posting. Debating and exchanging ideas with clear explanations and defenses for one’s position is what this is all about. Simply coming on here and making empty assertions while attacking personally is not a helpful method of exchanging ideas.

    “It is convoluted fiction. It goes over and under and around the subject…quoting scripture here and there but never really proving the premise.”

    Not really sure what you are saying here… other than to make an empty assertion backed up by no information. How is the premise not proven? How is it fiction? Simply saying it does not prove a premise shows nothing other than you don’t agree with it. Fine, I understand you don’t agree with it. But if we are going to get past a 5th grade school yard “yes it is/no it isn’t” type of argument you have to provide something a little more “meaty”.

    “boy, the brain washing has gone deep! People will be judged by the knowledge they have and what they have done with it. YOU are in a worse position than Pharoh!!”

    Once again, nothing but a personal attack with no information behind it.

    John 1: 12 says ” Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God…”

    Mormonism teaches that we are all children of God. How did Christ give us the right to become something we already are? We can’t become His children if we already are His children. In addition, this text clearly shows that it is only those who accept Christ who can become His children.

    Now, if you want to do more than provide 5th grade attacks against me, please address the above argument… not me personally… the argument.

    In addition, you did not address the passage in Romans regarding Pharoh. Once you do the above without attacking me personally, I will be happy to address your question about baptism for the dead.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    did you mean: “be a good little girl and you can have a lollipop”? just checking.

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    As long as we are reading in John. How about John 1:3? If He made EVERYTHING, then why not man? Why are we not ALL made by Him? Are you making a distinction between “offspring” and “son”?

    Many times in the Scriptures we are referred to as “children of God”. Where did people come from, if not from God? Does the mother’s body create a spirit, too? Why would we pray to “Father”?? Why are we told in Acts (17:29) that we are the offspring of God and resemble Him? How about Psalms 82:6? This was our Primary theme a few months back, telling us that we are children of the Most High.

    Re:John 1:12
    I think that the Lord is simply “claiming” these converts as his own. He is possibly referring to the Patriarchal order of the Priesthood as well. (power and priesthood being synonymous) At any rate, I think this one scripture does NOT negate all the other references in the Bible!

    as for Pharaoh, do you think that God raises up people to be evil? OR is it more likely that he allows evil so that HIS glory may be displayed? Allowing evil is related to our agency. Of course He knows the beginning from the end. He knew the choices Pharaoh would make, he knew the need for a deliverer to be raised up. I still stand by my premise that ALL will be given the SAME opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel, or God ceases to be God. He is above ALL full of justice and truth. He is the same yesterday, today and forever! Instead of lying down and playing dead when evil comes along, the Lord wants us to rise above it and give Him the Glory!!
    THAT is what that scripure tells us.

    One thing that drives me crazy about “you guys” is when you isolate ONE scripture and hang the whole world on it.
    I compare “Christianity” to kindergarten. You have the easy life, no burdens, no worries. Just believe and you ARE SAVED! You don’t have to deal with any complicated doctrine, i.e. priesthood, pre-mortal life, covenants, etc. Just skate along patting yourselves on the back totally oblivious to the OBVIOUS! OUR Gospel, however, is like Post-graduate study. We know the REAL doctrine and fell obliged to do something about it! We study and work and live in the real world. We are accountable for our doings, (see the joke of a post by Mark Cares) we “choose the right”, we pay tithing, we attend the temple, we do ALL that is asked of us because we LOVE THE LORD and He has asked us to obey Him and serve Him. We live in the real world with the REAL men and have hope in our Savior for a better day. We are not deluded by the “feel good” freebies offered by “you guys”.
    I am sorry that you have fallen so far from the truth you once had…..but I even doubt if you EVER truly believed or had a testimony of the Gospel. that may be your saving grace.

    LaDonna

  • Brad

    Darrell, everyone has free will, and everyone has the chance to accept or reject. Some will choose not to accept. Some, thinking they’ve accepted, have actually rejected. It’s unfortunate, but true. And some, no matter how much you try to explain to them, just won’t be persuaded otherwise. I will never be persuaded away from Christianity, b/c I know it’s true. I’m sure Ladonna will never be persuaded from Mormonism, b/c she believes it’s true. We’ve each made our choice, and we’re each responsible for our choice.

    I’d cut bait and move on to greener pastures.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    Thanks for the scriptures. The problem you are running into is you are trying to compare scriptures which are not talking about the same thing. When proper hermeneutics is applied and the texts are read in context it is apparent they are talking about different things…

    1. Psalms 82:6 – The reference to “the sons of God” is NOT talking about all men. It is specifically talking about the Hebrew leaders. The next verse says ” But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” In addition, Christ made this even clearer when He referred back to this verse in John saying, “If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came“. One of the titles used for Hebrew Leaders was ‘god’ and the verse in Psalms was referring to that name. It was not talking about all men being ‘Gods in Embryo’ as Mormon theology declares.

    2. Acts 17:29. Paul is using the language of Greek Poets. Look back to verse 28 where he says “As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’” He was preaching to a poytheistic culture that worshipped many gods and was trying to declare to them how we have all been created by The One True God. Therefore, he made an appeal using a reference from their own culture.

    Let me be very clear here… in the sense that we are all CREATED by God I believe we can call Him Father. Nevertheless, as The Bible declares, until we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we are not His children in a real sense… we belong to the devil until that point (see reference further down). This is vastly different from the Mormon claim we are all spirit born children of God and his wife(s) and are gods in embryo. This teaching is simply not biblical and violates numerous verses from The Bible which teach there was, is and will only be ONE GOD. We are not gods in embryo and we are not of the same nature as God. No one on earth will grow to be a god.

    3. John 1:3… Of course Christ made everything. However, just because He made us does not make us His children. He made the rocks and trees as well… are they His children? We are God’s creation and have been given the right to be declared His children once we accept Christ as our Savior. Until that point, we are actually children of the devil. John 8 says, “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire.” There are only two families on earth… those who accept Christ and are Children of God and those who do not accept Christ who are Children of the Devil.

    Have a great afternoon!

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    Just because YOU say that is what the scriptures mean does NOT mean much to me. And just how does one transfer from one father to another? the Lord did not mean that the Devil was the LITERAL father. Because you lack the spirit, you lack understanding.

    God has promised us ALL that he has. Is He a liar? No, He is not. why would be make us heirs to ALL he has and then keep us subserviant? doesn’t make sense.

    you’ll make a dandy preacher…you’ve got the gobble-dd-gook down pat. poor mrs. darrell!!

  • ladonnamorrell

    darrell,

    i am home now with my scriptures. You are just wrong. those scriptures say that WE are the offspring of God. Why can’t the scriptures MEAN what they say? you guys always have some convoluted meaning ….that is EXACTLY what I mean by “gobble-dee-gook”. THEY MEAN WHAT THEY SAY!!

    Do you really think a mother’s body creates a spirit?
    You just waxed poetic about “design” (which, btw, I TOTALLY agree with) and yet you say we are NOT offspring of God?

    The scripture in Acts is telling the people that God is not made of silver or gold because WE AS HIS OFFSPRING are made like him…and obviously WE ARE NOT SILVER OR GOLD. It is quite simple and straightforward, but YOU want to apply a Christianized “I know more than you do” spin to it.

    The scripture in Psalms is also quite straightforward….The Lord is telling us that we are LIKE HIM and HIS FATHER, but if we do not walk in light and truth we shall “die” like mortal man, not live in Christ. (Deuteronomy 14:1 also tells us that we are Children of the Lord.)

    Christ lived pre-mortally, we know that Jeremiah lived pre-mortally, so why not the rest of us??

    I know I sound pretty snotty, but that is how I feel about someone who would reveal the temple ceremony and someone who has broken covenants and victimized his own family. Darrell, you will pay SO dearly for what you have done! Good luck! you are SO going to need it.
    feel free to “cut bait and move on”. I know what your answers will be…more of the same gobble-dee-gook as before.
    ladonna

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    “Christians are those who follow Christ.”

    If I pick up a rock and name it Jesus, and bow down to worship it, am I worshiping Jesus? Of course not. Why? Because the rock isn’t Jesus.

    If some person, whether Mohommad or Joseph Smith, radically redesigns Jesus so he is no longer the Jesus of the Bible, then those who follow that “Jesus” are no longer following the real Jesus, and are therefore not Christians.

  • Brad

    Great point, Kevin.

    Next, a Mormon will then say “so whose definition of Christ is correct”? They would say theirs is, while I would say it isn’t, and would be the Evangelical definition. At which point we’re still back to a big difference b/w Mormons and Christians – a different Jesus.

    Jesus CAN’T hold the characteristics of the Mormon view of “Christ” and the Evangelical view of “Christ” at once, b/c they don’t fit with each other. So to say we worship the “same” Christ is patently incorrect, as many Mormons would say, b/c the “Christ” each of us worship has different attributes.

    Which then arrives us – still – back at the point of: how do we know what is correct? It still boils down to interpretation, and whether you hold to the Bible alone, or to the Bible PLUS 3 other books PLUS “revelation” from a prophet.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    You are not understanding me… I will try to explain again. No, I do not believe the mother’s womb creates the spirit. God creates our spirits – He is the creator of everything (notice I said create – NOT FORM – big difference between us and LDS). In the sense God created us we can call Him Father. Paul was trying to explain this concept of a Creator God to the polytheistic Geeks using their own language. He was telling them that we have a creator God who made us and, therefore, we are His ‘offspring’ to use the language of their poets. In no way was he declaring the Mormon doctrine we are all spirit children of a God and His wife(s) who pre-existed with Him and now are ‘Gods in Embryo’. This twisted LDS doctrine of pre-existence, eternal progression and theosis wholeheartedly violates The Bible on so many fronts it is patentedly ridiculous. Because of our sinful nature brought on by Adam and Eve’s first sin (which BTW IS NOT A GOOD THING despite what LDS teach) it is not until we ACCEPT CHRIST as our Lord, God and Savior that we can literally be adopted as Children of God. Unless one does this they are literally adopted as Children of the Devil. Hence, there are only two families on the face of the earth… those who accept Christ are Children of God and those who do not accept Christ are Children of the Devil. To say that we are all children of God is misleading and doctrinally dangerous, because we ARE NOT until we accept Christ and there are eternal consequences for those who do not.

    Perhaps I am reading your posts wrong, but you do appear to be emmenating a lot of anger and hatred towards me. If so, it is very sad to see and I am sorry that I cause you to feel that way. Please know that I hold no malice towards you and truly will pray for you to see the truth. I bear you my testimony that, although you cannot see it right now, you are following a false prophet and a false man-made religion. Christ is not the spirit born son of a God and his wife(s). Christ is God and has existed so eternally. Your husband will never be a God… nor will any other man on the earth. As we are told over and over again in The Bible, there was, is and will always only be ONE GOD and He alone is our Savior, Yahweh!! The Book of Mormon is NOT the word of God, Joseph Smith was not a prophet and neither is Thomas S Monson. I pray that you will open your eyes and turn away from the lies of the LDS Church to the only one who can save you… Jesus Christ and Him alone.

    Darrell

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    Good point — if the Jesus of Christianity and the Jesus of Mormonism are clearly different, which is correct? I would take two approaches to answer this:

    1. The Biblical approach. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that indicates that there is a “God the Mother”, that God evolved from a man, or that Jesus was the product somehow of the marriage of God the Father and God the Mother. Instead, the Bible presents God as one who has always existed and doesn’t change. Everything points to a Christian rather than a Mormon understanding of who Jesus is.

    2. The historical approach. There are no traces in early church history of Mormon doctrines. No temple or temple ceremonies, no man evolving into God, no polygamy (I know that is not a current practice), no genealogies, no undergarments, etc. There are no traces in North America of Book of Mormon history. Again, nothing here points to a Mormon understanding of who Jesus is.

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    “As we are told over and over again in The Bible, there was, is and will always only be ONE GOD and He alone is our Savior, Yahweh!!”

    How did Jesus come to earth? How did He leave part of himself in heaven? What does God look like? What does Jesus do with his body when He is back in heaven? How does Jesus pray to himself? How does Jesus appear on the right hand of himself? Why are we taught that there is a Father and a Son? How can Jesus be made in the “express” image of himself? and on and on……

    Boy, am I glad for the RESTORATION of the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ that teaches the pure, unadulterated, plain and precious truths of the ORIGINAL Gospel of Jesus Christ. NOT some hokey-pokey version that is totally unsupported by scripture!!!

    “Because of our sinful nature brought on by Adam and Eve’s first sin”

    You have even bought into that??? God knew what choice Adam and Eve would make. that is why there was a PLAN of salvation. Not an accident, not a catastrophe, not a surprise!! On the strength of the Savior’s pre-mortal promise to be our Savior and Redeemer, and then upon his completion of His atoning sacrifice the Plan of Salvation was accomplished. There was NEVER any question about whether it would be completed. And never any question about the infinite and universal application!

    “This twisted LDS doctrine of pre-existence, eternal progression and theosis wholeheartedly violates The Bible on so many fronts it is patentedly ridiculous”

    I am still laughing! YOU are patentedly ridiculous!
    There are just too many things you guys cannot explain….or take that back. You make a silly, convoluted stab at explaining it but end up creating more problems that CAN’T be explained. Probably not your fault….no spirit, no comprendo.

    “The Book of Mormon is NOT the word of God, Joseph Smith was not a prophet and neither is Thomas S Monson.”

    Is this what you chant in the shower every day with your fingers crossed? You have given up so much and YOU DON’T even know it yet. Oh and about that badge of honor….make sure you flash that when you hit the pearly gates…I am sure that Peter will have quite the set up for you…One thing i do know..you won’t need a heater!!

    As to the Children of God comments…do you honestly believe that God is a respecter of persons? would He really send people to earth and not give them an equal opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and return to Heaven??(oh yeah, there are also scriptures that say that when we die we return to that God that GAVE us life..sounds like He is the Father to me! :) Worse yet, would He send people to earth KNOWING they would have such a lousy situation that they would never hear of Jesus and NOT CARE or have a PLAN for them? NO!

    Your religion is just false. It is not true, it is not scriptural and above all it is not FAIR! And God is a God of Justice, Mercy and Truth!

    Oh and Kevin…..

    “If I pick up a rock and name it Jesus, and bow down to worship it, am I worshiping Jesus? Of course not. Why? Because the rock isn’t Jesus.”

    That was about the STUPIDEST comment I have ever read,
    and it has no bearing whatsoever on the topic. I guess it was supposed to be an analogy??? better hit English 101 one more time!

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    Your comments are utterly unacceptable.

    “I am still laughing! YOU are patentedly ridiculous!”

    “Is this what you chant in the shower every day with your fingers crossed? You have given up so much and YOU DON’T even know it yet. Oh and about that badge of honor….make sure you flash that when you hit the pearly gates…I am sure that Peter will have quite the set up for you…One thing i do know..you won’t need a heater!!”

    “That was about the STUPIDEST comment I have ever read…”

    These type of comments will no longer be tolerated on this blog. Frame your agruments in an intelligent manner without personal attacks or this converstion will end. I would like for you to consider one more thing. You believe you have the truth and that I am following a lie. However, your comments display zero fruits of the spirit. I have been trying over and over to converse with you in an honest, non-attacking, straightforward manner. I openly say that I consider YOUR BELIEFS to be false yet I have not once attacked you personally. You continue to call me names and consistently frame your arguments around me personally rather than the issues. How do you think this comes across to those who read this blog WHO MAY ACTUALLY BE CONSIDERING THE LDS CHURCH? Do you think it reflects good on your church? Or, do you think the chances are better they will see your comments as displaying NONE of the characteritics of a Christian? Think about it.

    The LDS church teaches Jesus Christ is a spirit born son of God the Father… they are 2 separate beings with one of them, Jesus Christ, NOT BEING AN ETERNAL BEING. There was a time, under your theology, when He did not exist. There was a God prior to Him, namely The Father or Elohim. In addition, it is taught in the Temple that Jesus’s name is Jehovah. It is important to note here that Jehovah comes from the Hebrew name Yahweh, which is translated as “The Lord”. When you see the title “The Lord” used it is often referring to Jehovah or Yahweh. In light of this information please explain, in an intelligent non-attacking manner, how God and Jesus Christ can both be Gods under the LDS Teaching on the Nature of God given the following scriptures.

    Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
    43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
    43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
    43:12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.”

    Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
    44:8 You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
    45: 18 I am the LORD, and there is no other.
    45: 21 And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.
    45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

    Isaiah 46: 9 I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

    Deut 6:4 The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

    Mark 12:29 The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one”

    Deut 4: 35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.

    Deut 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

    Psalms 86:10 For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    1 Cor 8:4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.

    1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!

    Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ…

    John 14:7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
    14:9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
    20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (when he was speaking to CHRIST He called Him GOD!)

    Let me sum this up… these scriptures clearly teach…

    1. There is but ONE God
    2. He has always existed
    3. There is no God Before Him
    4. There will be no gods after Him
    5. His name is Yahweh/Jehovah/The Lord
    6. He alone is our Savior
    7. The New Testament refers to Jesus Christ as God

    It does not take a rocket scientist to see the major issues these scriptures create for the LDS Teaching Jesus Christ is a spirit born son of a God and man can progress to become a God. For that would mean that there was a God prior to Him, after Him and besides Him.

    I look forward to an intelligent, coherent, non-attacking response which sticks to the ISSUE and does not bring up ad hominem attacks.

    God Bless.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    You accuse Joseph of making up scriptures, I suggest you chant in the shower….what’s the big deal?

    And who is kevin and WHAT does HE have to do with our conversation?….and you have to admit his comment made no sense. the analogy was far-fetched and simply did not apply. “stupid” seemed like the proper word. I am honest if nothing else. And if someone that is investigating the Church is reading this, I hope they know that I have a testimony of the Gospel and I have enough gumption to stand up for what is right! Sorry, the gifts of the Spirit do not include lying down and playing dead and letting someone trample my beliefs un-challenged. You have gotten in several insults so quit patting yourself on the back. That kind of behavior might lead that “unknown” investigator to think that you are “holier than thou”.

    Jehovah is Jesus Christ. He is the God of the Old Testament. That is His pre-mortal name or title.

    Thanks to His appearance in the Sacred Grove we know a lot about Him. He is the literal Son of His Father. The ONLY begotten Son (like the Bible teaches). He is a God. God the Father is GOD. His Son does “what he has seen the Father do”. Jesus Christ is in charge of this world (He was the creator) and OUR church is HIS church. We pray in HIS name while addressing our prayer to Heavenly Father. They are 2 separate and distinct individuals. It is not possible that Jesus sits on his own right hand side. (Stephen saw Him) It is not probable that He prays to himself. When the Savior received a body and fulfilled all righteousness by being baptized, His father’s voice was heard from heaven and the Holy Ghost was represented in the form like that of a dove. That was the 3 distinct, separate members of the God-head. Each is God, and each is separate. Jesus said that IF you have seen Him, you have seen His Father. That means that God the Father has a body, too. The early Christians understood this. The Nicene Council, “legislated” the current view of the Trinity. It is not biblical. Constantine was not even a Christian at that time!.

    1. God the Father is GOD, He is eternal, Alpha and Omega, the great I AM.
    2. Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son, God the Son, Jehovah, the Prince of Peace. (not the KING, the prince,,,meaning the Son)
    3. The Holy Ghost is also God the Spirit.
    4. The 3 of them make up the God-head.
    5. They are “ONE” in purpose, love, knowledge…everything EXCEPT body. (Christ is made in the “express” image of His Father..so His Father obviously had a body.)

    6. Christ asked that the Church be “ONE” as He and His father are “ONE”. This tells us that HE MEANT one in purpose. Obviously he doesn’t mean that we should all jump into one “body” and be one person.

    7. I can’t believe YOU need this explained to you. I am completely amazed that you could have the complete truth, the pure principles of the Gospel that make so much sense and then revert back to this mixed up hodge podge doctrine.

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    You did not answer the question…

    You said…

    “Jehovah is Jesus Christ. He is the God of the Old Testament. That is His pre-mortal name or title.”

    I agree with you… Jehovah/Yahweh/The Lord is Jesus Christ. Therefore, please explain the scriptures I listed in light of LDS teachings. Here are few… for ease of reading where it says The Lord I inserted Yahweh/Jehovah.

    Isaiah 43:3 For I am Yahweh/Jehovah, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
    43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh/Jehovah, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
    43:11 I, even I, am Yahweh/Jehovah, and apart from me there is no savior.
    43:12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares Yahweh/Jehovah, “that I am God.”

    Isaiah 44:6 This is what Yahweh/Jehovah says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, Yahweh/Jehovah Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
    44:8 You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

    Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh/Jehovah, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
    45: 18 I am Yahweh/Jehovah, and there is no other.
    45: 21 And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.
    45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

    Isaiah 46: 9 I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

    Yahweh/Jehovah is Jesus Christ – as you admit. In these verses (as well as the numerous others I listed in my previous post) it says that He (Jesus Christ/Yahweh/Jehovah) is our God, there is no God before Him, there will be no God after Him and there will be no God besides Him. Therefore, how do you explain the teaching of the LDS Church that there WAS A GOD PRIOR TO JEHOVAH, namely God the Father or Elohim who spiritually birthed Him? This teaching is clearly in violation of The Bible saying there is NO GOD BEFORE, AFTER, OR BESIDES Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus Christ.

    Darrell

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    “And who is kevin and WHAT does HE have to do with our conversation?”

    Ladonna, this is how blogs work. Many people can join in the conversation. They are public forums.

    Who am I? One who has faith in Christ as he is revealed in the Bible and in the teachings of the Church Fathers. The church of Jesus Christ has had its ups and downs, but it didn’t become extinct back at the end of the first century. I have lived in Utah in the past, and may be returning there soon, so I’ve been around Mormons, most of whom are very respectful and decent people (my Mormon friends have never called me “stupid” when we have discussed our differences).

    My “rock” argument is sound. If the Jesus of Mormonism isn’t the Jesus of Scripture, then he isn’t really Jesus, and those who follow a false Jesus aren’t Christians.

  • Brad

    Ladonna, the “rock” argument is perfectly sound. You seem to think our refusal to acknowledge what you believe as “truth” is silly, “stupid”, or whatever. If we were to say that YOUR refusal to acknowledge what WE believe as “truth” is the same, would you believe it? Nope. So, we’re at a standstill, that won’t be broken.

    It’s unfortunate, but it’s OK. God never said everyone will go to Heaven, nor did he say it’s a Christian’s job to convert – only to tell. If you choose not to believe what we’re saying, that is your right. We’re not saying any different.

    But Darrell is right. If you look at the comments you make, which are directed more at the person, rather than the issue, they’re clearly very angry comments. Not sure why you’re not able to discuss the issues without getting personal toward others, but it doesn’t lend itself well towards blogging. Further, Kevin’s points aren’t irrelevant, and he’s right, that’s the nature of a blog, it’s not just a conversation between 2 people, but for anyone who wishes to join in.

    We’d love for you to believe what we say, Ladonna – we really would – and we pray that you will. But at the end of the day, I don’t lose sleep over it, b/c it’s not my responsibility to convert you, and you have the freedom of choice, granted by God, to believe what you wish. God holds us all responsible for the choices we make, and Scripture is clear, that not all make the choice that leads to eternal life with Him. That’s just the way it works.

  • ladonnamorrell

    I am well aware of how a blog works. Kevin’s comments WERE NOT RELEVANT. If I was worshipping a rock then maybe. I have not chosen some random “thing” to worship. I follow Jesus Christ. Period. I did not call YOU stupid. I said your comment was stupid. I am glad your LDS friends are nice. We are all nice, but here on this blog I am honest. Yes, i am unhappy with Darrell. He has shown INCREDIBLE lack of respect and broken covenants by revealing sacred temple information. HE GETS A PASS, but I don’t?? sorry, doesn’t work that way.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    The rock argument is extremely accurate and sound. If one is worshipping any Jesus OTHER THAN the Jesus taught in The Bible they may as well be worshipping a “rock they name Jesus”. LDS do not worship the Jesus of The Bible as demonstrated by the scriptures I provided Ladonna. I look forward to her intelligent, reasoned, non-attacking and well thought out response regarding her interpretation of LDS doctrine in light of these scriptures.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    darrell,

    I worship Jesus Christ. Jesus of the Bible AND the stick of Joseph. Maybe YOU are worshipping a rock, but I am not. It was not a good analogy. period.

    you said:
    “Therefore, how do you explain the teaching of the LDS Church that there WAS A GOD PRIOR TO JEHOVAH, namely God the Father or Elohim who spiritually birthed Him? This teaching is clearly in violation of The Bible saying there is NO GOD BEFORE, AFTER, OR BESIDES Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus Christ.”

    If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that Jesus is the ONE AND ONLY GOD?

    If so, you are obviously in error. It is VERY clear from the Bible that Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different entities. They are ONE in voice, power, mind, purpose,knowledge, glory, etc, but they are NOT ONE personage/body.

    1. The Father and the Son were seen together: Acts 7:55-56

    2. Jesus Christ is the Father’s Son: Mark 9:7, John 3:16, 9:35-37, 17:1; 20:17, 21, 31, Romans 15:6, Ephesians 3:14, Hebrews 1:6 and 5:5

    3. The Father is Jesus Christ’s God: Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3 & 17, 1 Peter 1:3, Revelation 3:12.

    4. The Father is greater than the Son: John 10:29, 14:28, 1 Corinthians 15:28.

    5. Jesus Christ intercedes between God and man: John 14:6, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 7:25, 1 Timothy 2:5.

    6. The Father and the Son have distinct wills: Matthew 26:39-42, Luke 22:41-42, John 5:30.

    7. The Son teaches the Father’s doctrine, not His own: John 7:16-17 and 8:27-28.

    8. Jesus Christ did not perform His own work but His Father’s work: Luke 2:49-50, John 17:3-4.

    9. Jesus Christ prayed unto the Father: Matthew 6:6-9 & 26:39 & 27:46, Luke 3:34, John 12:27-28, 16:26 & 17:5-11.
    10. Jesus Christ commanded others to pray unto His Father: Matthew 6:6, 9, Luke 11:2, Colossians 3:17, Hebrews 7:25-26.

    11. The Father sent His Son to the earth: Mark 9:37, John 3:16, 5:24, 6:38, 7:28-29, 8:26 & 29, 12:44-45, 1 John 3:16, 5:24, 6:38.

    12. while upon the earth Jesus Christ spoke of His Father as being in Heaven: Matthew 5:38, :9, 10:33, 16:17, Luke 11:2, John 14:12, 20:17.

    13. The Father spoke to His Son from heaven before witnesses: Matthew 3:17, 17:5, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, John 12:28-30.

    14. Jesus Christ retruned to the Father after His resurrection: John 14:12, 16:27-28 & 30, 1 Peter 3:21-22.

    15. The Father has committed all judment unto His Son: John 5:17-20, 22-23, 27; Tomans 2:16, 2 Timothy 4:1.

    You can CLEARLY see that Jesus Christ is separate from His Father.

    Jesus and His Father are Unified so completely that Jesus can, with confidence, speak for His Father. There is NO point of doctrine that they differ on so in this sense they are ONE. Jesus tried to teach the people of His day to be ONE as He and the Father are ONE. What a wonderful world we would have if we could be ONE with God.

    As for the Isaiah passages. Isaiah is referring to Jesus Christ as the Savior of this world. He is the God of this world. He is the ONLY Savior this world will ever have. (I believe He is the one and only Savior of the universe) There will NEVER be another one like Him. No idols or other gods can compare. HE IS THE ONLY ONE!! He has every right to call himself God, he is a God. But that does NOT preclude Him from being the Son of GOD. Is that hard to understand?

    Darrell, you once told me that you joined the LDS Church without first knowing what was in the Bible. Well, it appears to me that you didn’t study out the teachings of the LDS Church very well at all either. These are pretty basic teachings that YOU should have known. All the questions you asked are the same ones being asked in Joseph Smith’s day and time. That is why he went to the Grove. That First Vision revealed more to man than all the reading of the Bible did for hundreds of years. It told the true nature of God and Jesus Christ and that precious knowledge is the foundation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He lives! He is on the right hand of God. He is our Savior and Redeemer. He loves us and through Joseph, His Church was restored to the earth. The Restoration was given out of love. It was prophesied thousands of years ago. It is even mentioned in that same chapter of Isaiah you were just quoting…see 45:8.
    Remember Ezekiel 37:17-19? The restoration, including the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, is the forerunner to the gathering of Israel in the last days when we shall ALL live under ONE KING!

    Joseph was just a 14 year old kid when he had the first vision. I just don’t understand how you can be so hateful and judgmental of him. He gained NOTHING of any worldly value through out his entire life. What in the world would have been his motivation? He was known as an honest person. HIS own family suffered intense persecution but they still believed him. He DIED to seal his testimony! And every witness of the Book of Mormon stayed true to their testimony. And you threw him under the bus!

    I am glad that I know him and love him. He will stand at the head of this dispensation through out all eternity. And Adam (also under your bus) as the Father of all Mankind will be there, too. Both faithful servants to their Savior and King.

    You have lost your reward.

    ~LaDonna

    hey kevin and brad: practice up on the analogies and get back to me.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    You have still not answered my question. The Isaiah passages say…

    1. Jehovah has ALWAYS existed as God
    2. There are NO GODS that existed BEFORE HIM
    3. There are no Gods that exist BESIDES HIM
    4. There will be no Gods that exist AFTER HIM

    Given this, how do you explain the LDS teaching that…

    1. Jesus Christ is spirit born of God the Father therefore, there was a time when Jehovah DID NOT EXIST and Elohim existed PRIOR TO JEHOVAH. This violates 1 and 2.

    2. Man can become a God. This violates 3 and 4.

    These teachings are in clear violation of The Bible. The tritheism of Mormonism emphasizes the threeness of God to the exclusion of the Oneness of God. You are basically throwing out the entire Old Testament which teaches that there is, was and will only be ONE GOD, Yahweh!! Please explain how you resolve these contradictions and violations under your theology. You don’t need to give me a theology lesson on Mormonism. I was on the Stake High Council, taught Early Morning Seminary and served in the Bishopric for years. I taught LDS Theology and understand it very well. That is one of the reasons I understand the contradiction it has with The Bible. I look forward to your explanation.

    BTW, you also said in your previous post that Jesus is the Prince NOT The King… not sure if you noticed it but Isaiah 44:6 contradicts you:

    Isaiah 44:6 This is what Yahweh/Jehovah says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, Yahweh/Jehovah Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    God Bless!!

    Darrell

  • Brad

    Darrell,

    I’m done with this one – clearly it’s pointless.

    Good luck.

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    Ladonna,

    I am willing to discard the rock for now. But the point stands: the LDS Jesus and the Christian Jesus (as understood by Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox) are so radically different that they cannot both be the real Jesus. Do you agree?

    With Respect,
    Kevin N

  • ladonnamorrell

    don’t have time for much, but Heavenly Father didn’t live in Israel…so Christ can be the KING of Israel.
    He is the “Prince” of Peace….guess Heavenly Father had the corner on that one. :)

    you said:

    1. Jehovah has ALWAYS existed as God
    2. There are NO GODS that existed BEFORE HIM
    3. There are no Gods that exist BESIDES HIM
    4. There will be no Gods that exist AFTER HIM

    1. As far as THIS earth is concerned, Jehovah has ALWAYS been the God of this earth.

    2. There has NEVER been another God of this earth.

    3. There are NO OTHER Gods of this earth.

    4. He is the ONE AND ONLY SAVIOR of this earth.

    In Isaiah’s time there were MANY who worshipped idols. Jehovah is the true God that we should worship. Jehovah and Heavenly Father are ONE in power, doctrine, word, glory, etc….so IF you worship ONE, you worship the OTHER. Jesus said (paraphrased) He that receives me, receives Him that sent me.

    Basically I already HAD answered your questions. You are hung up on semantics.

    Joseph saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in that grove of trees. Stephen saw God and His Son before his death.

    They are separate beings. There is no question about it.

    You are simply without the Spirit to guide you. I am sorry you have lost it.

    LaDonna

    too bad you aren’t going to a wonderful lecture tonight instead of a pointless debate.

    I hope Mrs. Darrell reads these posts and is pricked in her heart.

    COME BACK!! The Gospel is True! Your children will be OK, they have a chance(i am sure your family will have their temple work done someday), but YOU need to come back to the True Church before it is too late!! Your husband has led you astray!! The fact that it took 6 years for him to convince you tells me that there is hope for you!

  • Bill Pratt

    Hi LaDonna,
    Every one of your examples of Jesus and the Father being two separate beings is explained by the fact that Jesus has two natures, a divine and a human nature. That is what the Trinity is about. Jesus is both fully God and fully man. As a human, Jesus was separate from the Father. Once you understand that, all of your issues with Jesus seeming like a different being from the Father are addressed. There is no need to deny the unity of God and claim that there are 3 separate beings in the godhead. It is unnecessary to explain the passages you cited. Believe it or not, the early church fathers, who developed the Trinity from the biblical texts, read those same passages you cited. I doubt we can improve on their understanding.

    God bless,
    Bill

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    You said…

    “There has NEVER been another God of this earth.”

    Are you saying God the Father is NOT a God of this earth? Interesting position.

    In addition, the Biblical text does NOT say there are no other Gods OF THIS EARTH before, besides or after Jehovah. The Bible says there are NO GODS other than Him… period. You are changing the text and reading something into it that is simply not there. You are performing classic eisegesis by bringing an a priori position to the text.

    You lack a sufficent explanation for how your doctrine can match the teachings of The Bible because it simply can’t. The Bible says there is ONE GOD, period. This God has chosen to manifest Himself eternally as three persons… Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is what The Bible teaches. You will find no where in The Bible the Tri-Theistic LDS doctrine which says…

    1. God was once a man who progressed to become a God
    2. Jesus is a spirit born son of another God
    3. Man can become a God

    In fact, not only will you find no Biblical support for the above teachings, you will find many things in The Bible which teach the above are UTTERLY FALSE AND HERETICAL.

    It has been fun talking with you about this but I don’t think we will get any further. I will pray for you and wish you all the best in the future.

    BTW, thanks for addressing my wife. She got a good laugh out of it. She called me on my cell phone to tell me about your post while I was on the way home. If you only knew my wife you would realize how far off you are by thinking I CONVINCED HER the LDS Church is not true. Funny thought!!

    God Bless.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    darrell,

    so glad i could provide the humor for the day. you are right (hey, that’s a first!) we are not getting anywhere. You have blinders on and I have the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    enjoy your kindergarten life! The real world is out there and you will be poorly prepared to meet it. But we do have a merciful Savior who, IF you humbled yourself, would take you back. (a little extra humor for your day!)

    LaDonna

    PS I am going to General Conference to enjoy the wonderful blessing of having a living Prophet and the living Apostles!

  • Brad

    Darrell,

    Watch those “blinders”! He-he-he!!!

    The only thing I think of when I see that word is a picture of the Clydesdale horses, marching down the road.

    Still a case of both believing they’re right, and neither will budge.

    Good news – both will find out eventually who was REALLY right.

    Bad news – one will be wrong, and will get the punishment that comes with that.

    Darrell, as you know, I’m siding with you and God on this one.

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    well, i am home from conference and I see that you did not post my last comment. did the rolf thing offend you? sorry if it did.

    conference was wonderful and i gained a lot of insight into OUR debate. the fact that it is pointless is obvious. I will never change you and you will never change me. the Savior and the Holy Ghost are the ones to change people. You will be held responsible for every thing you say about the Church and the Savior. I can’t intervene to “save” you from yourself. so, good luck to you and your family.

    ladonna

  • ladonnamorrell

    hey kevin,

    i just saw that you addressed this question to me.
    you said:” But the point stands: the LDS Jesus and the Christian Jesus (as understood by Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox) are so radically different that they cannot both be the real Jesus. Do you agree?”

    I actually worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The one that walked the shores of Galilee and healed the sick and lame and blind. The one who was born in the humblest of circumstances and was swaddled and laid in a manger. the one who was baptized by immersion in the river jordan by John, one who had the authority to baptize, and the Jesus who taught the multitudes and turned the water into wine. I worship the Savior who suffered for my sins and the sins of the world in the garden of Gethsamne and who hung on the cross and died. The same Jesus who arose again on a beautiful Sunday morning so that I too, might reclaim my own body through resurrection after I die. The same one who ordained Apostles to go forth and preach the good news of the Gospel and who then ascended to His Father in Heaven and ministered unto the spirits in prison.
    that is MY Jesus. how about you?

    ladonna

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    LaDonna:

    Ummmm, you left a few things out in your description of Jesus.

    Your Jesus is part of a system that includes eternal progression; man evolving into God. Your Jesus came from a mother who is not part of the Biblical concept of God. Those are pretty big differences.

  • ladonnamorrell

    You don’t believe that Jesus was born of Mary? Well, I do. I believe the Savior when He says that we will inherit ALL that the Father hath. I believe that after the death of my earthly body that there is more life to come! This earth life is but a moment! There is more to do. I DON’T believe in putting limits on God.
    You do not yet understand the fulness of the Gospel. Be a good boy and someday you will!

    ladonna

  • ladonnamorrell

    Bill,

    yes, i believe that the early church fathers “developed” the trinity. it is not scriptural and it was not original to the primitive church. it was “developed” by men who were centuries removed from the original church and who were without priesthood authority and without personal knowledge of the events recorded in the Bible. Constantine was not even a Christian at the time of the Nicene Council.
    I would not even try to “improve” on their false understanding. It is a mass of confusion. The more you try to diagram it, the more you try to explain it, the more confusing it becomes. It is not explainable because it is not true.

    ladonna

    thanks for trying, though.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    You claim you were Christian at one time yet continue to display a massive lack of understanding not only of Christianity but in many ways of your own faith as well.

    “You don’t believe that Jesus was born of Mary?”

    I cannot believe someone who claims they were once Christian and are now LDS would ask this. Seriously! How long were you Christian? Did you attend church at all? How long have you been LDS?

    Kevin was talking about YOUR CHURCH’S BELIEF that Jesus Christ was spiritually born of God the Father and His Heavenly Wife. You do realize your church teaches this, right?

    This teaching is completely Un-Biblical. It violates The Bible on so many counts it makes one’s head spin. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is ETERNAL and has ALWAYS EXISTED AS GOD (as I demonstated in the numerous scriptures I quoted you). There is simply no way to reconcile the LDS teaching of a Created/Spiritually Birthed Christ with the Jesus Christ of The Bible. They are not the same Christ. The LDS one is a “different Jesus”(2 Corinthians 11:4).

    “I see that you did not post my last comment.”

    Yes, any post that attacks my wife will be deleted.

    God Bless.

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    Darrell,

    I attacked your wife?? I thought I was providing your familie’s jollies!

    Of course I knew what Kevin meant, DUH! My point was this: I worship the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Not the Jesus Christ of the Nicene Council, or the protestant churches, who themselves are dead branches from a dead tree.
    Just because your beliefs have been handed down for centuries (and changed many times, btw) does not make them true. A mass of confusion = a mass of confusion, anyway you look at it.

    Why do you overlook the prophecies of an apostacy? You are still in it!

    LaDonna

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    “I worship the Jesus Christ of the Bible.”

    You mean the Jesus you worship was not spiritually birthed by God the Father? Because the Jesus of The Bible most certainly was not. Good to hear!!

    When are you sending in your letter to remove your name from the church?

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    you are quite the comedian, darrell!

    There are no truths of the Bible or the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ that conflict! It is only people lacking faith and who are looking for an easy way out that get their names blotted out. and that ain’t me!

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    “There are no truths of the Bible or the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ that conflict!”

    The problem is, Ladonna, the teachings of the LDS Church DO CONFLICT with The Bible as I have pointed out numerous times and you have YET to address. You continually duck the question.

    Please explain how these two facts can be reconciled…

    1. Yahweh/Jehovah/The Lord Jesus Christ says that THERE ARE NO GODS BEFORE HIM, AFTER HIM OR BESIDES HIM numerous times in the Bible

    Yet…

    2. The LDS Church teaches that God the Father was once a man, Jesus Christ was created/born of God the Father and a Heavenly Mother and man can become a God

    These facts clearly contradict The Bible by teaching that there was a God before Jesus Christ (Elohim), there are Gods out there BESIDES Yahweh/Jehovah (Elohim and Elohim’s God) and there will be more Gods to come (man).

    These are major problems which you have failed to deal with…. instead you attack, dodge and obfuscate.

    Darrell

  • Brad

    Darrell, you mean you’re looking for an actual REPLY, rather than just more name-calling?

    Silly rabbit…

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Yeah I know. It is probably crazy of me to keep hoping that Ladonna might actually stop the attacks and participate in a civil, adult conversation. However, I continue to pray and hope. I thought about bailing on this conversation once before – especially when she attacked my wife. Why would anyone want to attack a woman they have never met or seen? Crazy! Unfortunately, those are the tactics people resort to when they have nothing more intelligent or thought provoking to offer… ad hominem attacks.

    All we can do is pray and present the case for the REAL Christ.

    Later Brother!!

    Darrell

  • ladonnamorrell

    oh, it SO easy to say I attacked your wife when THERE is NO proof…the comment was “deleted”. I DID not attack your wife! hey, maybe I could start a couple of rumors about you!

    I had an answer all ready for you, but you would probably just twist it and make more false claims about me.

    actually I liked “clean cut’s” answers he did very well with his trinity answers. I think it is so funny that you accused him of “not speaking for the Church”. YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE A CHURCH TO SPEAK FOR!
    You have a ‘denomination’.

  • http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/ Darrell

    Ladonna,

    Slow down and read the comment. I said “Millett” does not speak officially for the LDS Church. And guess what, he doesn’t. Why quote him when you have a prophet you can quote?

    “I DID not attack your wife!”

    Yeah, you keep thinking that. My wife sure felt that way when she read your post… (heavy sarcasm there)

    “I had an answer all ready for you..”

    I would love to hear it… but guess what you chose to do instead…

    “YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE A CHURCH TO SPEAK FOR! You have a ‘denomination’.”

    Attack me. Imagine that.

    God Bless.

    Darrell

  • http://geochristian.wordpress.com/ Kevin N

    LaDonna,

    Darrell does have a church, not just a denomination. That was the starting point of this entire discussion. His church is the universal church of Jesus Christ established by the apostles, which has existed through its ups and downs since the resurrection. There has often been need for reformation, but never a need for restoration, for the church has never been extinguished. Today, it is composed of believers who might call themselves Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. We have our differences, but there is a unity in Christ that transcends our differences.

  • Brad

    Exactly right, Kevin.

    Ladonna, at some point you’ll need to wise up and realize that the comments you post, and the tone you post them in, will do absolutely NOTHING to bolster ANY arguments you might potentially make. You’ve seen it here, you’ve seen it on Mark Care’s blog, my guess is you’ll see it elsewhere.

    There’s a big difference between intelligent, reasoned, cogent remarks when discussing these issues, and flat-out insults, name-calling and personal attacks which you somehow feel the need to resort to. CleanCut, while I disagree vehemently with what he says, and while I’m sure he disagrees vehemently with what I, or Darrell, or Billy might say, at least does so in a reasoned, respectful fashion. It’s OK to agree to disagree in a civil fashion. You, however, don’t do that, and it makes people not even pay attention to anything you might have to offer. Yes, we read it, but all we really take note of are your poor tone, not the “meat” of anything you might say.

    You can believe you are as right as rain, when it comes to Mormonism. But until you figure out that there are people who disagree with you for very logical, though-out, intelligent reasons, and until you’re willing to discuss the objections civilly with those people, rather than just ranting and raving, you’ll get nowhere, and will probably find more and more of your comments getting deleted. You may not like it, but guaranteed it will happen to you. Try some different methods – softer methods, more polite methods, Ladonna.

  • http://www.musingsonmormonism.blogspot.com gloria

    Hi, darrell. I was referred to your blog by Jessica, who has a blog titled ” I love Mormons.” Thanks, Jessica for sharing the link.: )
    I just wanted to send you a note and just say how wonderful it is to “meet” other former LDS who have surrendered their lives to King Jesus! Praise the Lord!!!
    I too was a former mormon now sold out for Jesus.
    God is so good and so faithful! I am so encouraged to meet former LDS everday both online in real life, who have come to know of the saving grace of our Lord!
    Hallejah!
    I loved your post, and just wanted to say AMEN to what you wrote here!
    Unity in the essentials and grace in the non essentials.

    God bless,
    gloria

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